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One Week Left

Mar 2, 2025
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We're pre-gaming two of the biggest Linux events of the year. Engineers, organizers, and surprise guests are dropping by to give us the scoop before it all begins.

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WEBVTT 00:00:00.005 --> 00:00:03.885 You know, I've noticed recently there isn't really a maintained way to convert 00:00:03.885 --> 00:00:06.885 a website into a standalone desktop application. 00:00:07.325 --> 00:00:10.125 Like on Linux, you used to be able to use something like Natifier, 00:00:10.785 --> 00:00:14.685 where you could give it a URL and it would create an Electron-based standalone desktop app. 00:00:14.945 --> 00:00:19.285 There was also App Natify, which would do the same, but it would create an app 00:00:19.285 --> 00:00:20.685 image, which is kind of neat. 00:00:21.485 --> 00:00:25.045 Chrome and Firefox used to have these as just features built into them. 00:00:25.385 --> 00:00:28.045 Oh, yeah, kind of like you could do on Android or whatever, right? 00:00:28.085 --> 00:00:29.585 So, yeah, make this into a web app, okay. 00:00:29.585 --> 00:00:32.585 And this is, you know, there's so many web apps these days. I was looking for 00:00:32.585 --> 00:00:37.925 this and I kind of found something, but I'm wondering if anyone out there has 00:00:37.925 --> 00:00:40.165 something that works just a lot simpler. 00:00:40.345 --> 00:00:42.845 I think it's pronounced Turi. What do you think? 00:00:43.065 --> 00:00:43.425 Tari? 00:00:43.585 --> 00:00:46.305 Tari? Okay, let's go with that. It's probably a lot better. You can use Tari 00:00:46.305 --> 00:00:52.085 to essentially create a web app out of a website. And then there's some other 00:00:52.085 --> 00:00:53.265 tools around that you can use. 00:00:53.585 --> 00:00:57.365 You could even declaratively configure those in your Nix config, it looks like. 00:00:57.865 --> 00:01:01.645 But it's a lot of a process. versus something like Natifier where I just used 00:01:01.645 --> 00:01:04.985 to have a command line app, point at a URL, and boom, I had a local web app. 00:01:06.005 --> 00:01:09.545 I can't be the only one that wants this. This must be a thing on Linux, 00:01:10.245 --> 00:01:11.425 right? This can't be just dead. 00:01:11.605 --> 00:01:12.345 I just use a separate browser. 00:01:12.945 --> 00:01:15.745 Yeah, I don't want to use a separate browser. I want a separate app. 00:01:15.865 --> 00:01:18.585 Doesn't Linux Mint have a version of this that they have? 00:01:18.625 --> 00:01:18.845 Yes. 00:01:18.845 --> 00:01:19.845 In their X apps or whatever? 00:01:19.845 --> 00:01:23.785 Yes, they do. They do. They do. But that doesn't work for me, 00:01:23.805 --> 00:01:25.705 and it isn't packaged in the distro I'm using. 00:01:25.705 --> 00:01:29.285 I think you should go with the Tauri thing because I'm now remembering that 00:01:29.285 --> 00:01:33.085 Tauri is the term used for humans in Stargate SG-1. 00:01:44.505 --> 00:01:49.425 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:01:49.565 --> 00:01:50.225 My name is Wes. 00:01:50.445 --> 00:01:51.265 And my name is Brent. 00:01:51.265 --> 00:01:55.305 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up on the show today, we're getting ready for two of 00:01:55.305 --> 00:01:57.385 the biggest Linux events of the year. 00:01:57.745 --> 00:02:01.965 We've got some folks on the ground, organizers, and surprise guests joining 00:02:01.965 --> 00:02:04.505 us to give us the scoop before it all begins. 00:02:04.665 --> 00:02:08.645 Then we'll round out the show with some great boosts, killer picks, and a lot more. 00:02:08.765 --> 00:02:13.025 So before we go any further, let's say time-appropriate greetings to that mumble 00:02:13.025 --> 00:02:14.365 room. Hello, Virtual Lug. 00:02:15.225 --> 00:02:18.285 Hi, Chris. Hi, Wes. And hello, Brent. Hello, guys. Hello. 00:02:18.605 --> 00:02:22.305 It's a tight team this week. Did we piss them all off last week? 00:02:22.465 --> 00:02:24.165 Probably. We did have some hot takes. 00:02:24.305 --> 00:02:27.025 People were not happy about Rust. They didn't like the Rust talk. 00:02:27.505 --> 00:02:30.185 But nice to have you in their mumble room. Thank you very much for being here. 00:02:31.308 --> 00:02:36.668 And a big good morning to our friends over at TailScale. TailScale.com slash unplugged. 00:02:36.688 --> 00:02:39.828 That's where you go to support the show and get it for free for up to 100 devices, 00:02:40.048 --> 00:02:42.388 three users, no credit card. 00:02:42.588 --> 00:02:45.668 TailScale is the easiest way to connect your devices, your services, 00:02:46.028 --> 00:02:48.988 your applications, whatever they are, directly to each other. 00:02:49.188 --> 00:02:51.808 It's modern networking built on top of... 00:02:52.508 --> 00:02:52.948 Waggall. 00:02:53.408 --> 00:02:57.948 And it's fast, like really, really fast. You'll never even know you're using it. 00:02:57.968 --> 00:03:00.908 And it's intelligent, too. If two nodes are on the same LAN, 00:03:01.068 --> 00:03:02.428 they talk directly to each other. 00:03:02.548 --> 00:03:06.228 But if one of those nodes happens to move off your LAN, they continue to talk 00:03:06.228 --> 00:03:09.968 like they're right next to each other, just whatever the speed of your connection is. 00:03:10.128 --> 00:03:14.128 And it makes it so simple and straightforward to build a flat network of, 00:03:14.208 --> 00:03:16.308 say, multiple different online providers. 00:03:16.768 --> 00:03:19.928 Maybe you have multiple VPSs and you have systems on a LAN somewhere. 00:03:20.348 --> 00:03:24.268 You can bring all of those together. And if you work in an organization, 00:03:24.268 --> 00:03:29.208 there are so many options for how you can control things and program the networks 00:03:29.208 --> 00:03:32.228 that the right people get access to the right resources. 00:03:32.728 --> 00:03:36.468 It's zero trust that every organization can use, and it's painless. 00:03:36.648 --> 00:03:40.008 And you can start with our plan for free and support the show for up to 100 00:03:40.008 --> 00:03:44.548 devices and three users. No more inbound ports on your firewalls. 00:03:44.808 --> 00:03:48.468 We love it. Lots of listeners love it. And thousands of companies love it. 00:03:48.468 --> 00:03:52.708 Try it and support the show at tailscale.com slash unplugged. 00:03:55.543 --> 00:04:00.303 We have a meetup to announce, Saturday, March 8th, 7 p.m. 00:04:00.583 --> 00:04:05.363 In Pasadena, California. Details at meetup.com slash jupiterbroadcasting. 00:04:05.763 --> 00:04:09.063 And we're going to El Cholo, right? You think that's how you say it? 00:04:09.683 --> 00:04:12.863 And they have room for around 40 people. So last time we did a dinner, 00:04:12.963 --> 00:04:16.423 about 55 people showed up. So we do want you to RSVP if you're going to make it. 00:04:16.923 --> 00:04:20.363 Plan on bringing cash or maybe paying for meals and drinks on your own. 00:04:20.623 --> 00:04:23.903 Cash app or Venmo is probably also the work there, I think, from the website. 00:04:24.643 --> 00:04:29.083 And we generally do this at the yard house, which we were going to. 00:04:29.703 --> 00:04:33.903 But they wanted to charge us, and I understand, but they wanted to charge us a $3,200 minimum. 00:04:34.883 --> 00:04:37.523 So we called up El Cholo and they said, we'd love to have you. 00:04:37.643 --> 00:04:39.323 We can only have room for about 40-ish people. 00:04:39.943 --> 00:04:43.343 Some will cycle though, so don't worry. You know, you might pop in. 00:04:43.523 --> 00:04:46.083 Some people will be cycling out. There's a lot going on that evening. 00:04:46.683 --> 00:04:50.143 And yes, we are using the Meetup page for historical purposes for this one, 00:04:50.183 --> 00:04:51.943 meetup.com slash jupyterbroadcasting. 00:04:52.743 --> 00:04:55.703 Now, if you're listening, you can't make the meetup, but maybe you want to help 00:04:55.703 --> 00:04:58.303 out with the beer budget that night or something like that. You could always 00:04:58.303 --> 00:05:00.183 boost this episode. We'd appreciate that. 00:05:00.983 --> 00:05:04.103 And while we are in scale, boys, we have something special. 00:05:04.983 --> 00:05:10.383 We got nerdy and dug into eBPF. So while we're away at Planet Nixon scale, 00:05:10.643 --> 00:05:14.223 we have a special eBPF coming out, eBPF episode coming out for you. 00:05:14.963 --> 00:05:18.143 And this really is a superpower that's just waiting for you to take advantage. 00:05:18.323 --> 00:05:23.303 It's in your Linux kernel right now, and there are tools that make it possible for anyone to use it. 00:05:23.643 --> 00:05:26.103 We'll get into some of the more advanced use cases and some of the, 00:05:26.163 --> 00:05:29.563 like, just grab this executable and run it, and you can start messing with eBPF. 00:05:29.763 --> 00:05:33.803 We won't be live next Sunday, but our members will get a special bootleg episode, 00:05:33.823 --> 00:05:38.383 and that'll be episode 605, the eBPF special. 00:05:38.603 --> 00:05:41.963 And, you know, it's not necessarily our normal thing, so do let us know what you think about it. 00:05:42.183 --> 00:05:45.583 Yeah, I'm always a little nervous about these more technical episodes. 00:05:45.803 --> 00:05:49.583 We always get feedback from people saying they love it, but then sometimes the 00:05:49.583 --> 00:05:52.163 metrics don't actually support that. 00:05:52.503 --> 00:05:55.643 So we do want to hear your feedback on it too. So give us your thoughts. 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:03.500 Why are we doing a prerecord? Because next weekend will be Scale and Planet Nix. 00:06:03.640 --> 00:06:06.580 So this is the Sunday before Planet Nix. 00:06:07.380 --> 00:06:11.920 And we are so thrilled to go to the first Planet Nix because ideally, 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.620 if possible, we would love to cover every single one of them. 00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:21.460 I mean, imagine for us how exciting this is. We get into Nix and NixOS a couple 00:06:21.460 --> 00:06:26.520 of years ago now, before these events really existed. And now here we are, 00:06:26.700 --> 00:06:29.320 you know, on this journey and these events are starting to materialize. 00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:31.280 And this is the first Planet Nix. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:36.000 That's pretty exciting for us. And so we're delighted that Phlox is making it 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:40.240 possible for us to get down there and cover it and helping with the travel budget 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.340 and just really coming in clutch. 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:47.520 And so we wanted to chat with Ron. He's the CEO at Phlox and he's joining us right now. 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:54.160 Well, joining us now to share in the excitement is Ron Afani, 00:06:54.380 --> 00:06:59.320 and he is the co-founder of Phlox and the president of the NixOS Foundation, 00:06:59.320 --> 00:07:02.840 and an all-around great guy. Ron, welcome to the Unplugged program. 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:05.720 Super excited to be here again. It's almost been a year. 00:07:06.260 --> 00:07:12.120 I am super excited about Planet Nix, and I think I want to start with the fact 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.600 that this is technically kind of a new thing. It's the first Planet Nix, isn't it? 00:07:16.280 --> 00:07:16.820 It is. 00:07:18.758 --> 00:07:23.418 Now we want to give us, what's the background here on, is this going to be like a worldwide thing? 00:07:23.518 --> 00:07:27.218 Is this going to be a North America thing? Is this TBD? 00:07:28.098 --> 00:07:31.558 What's the kind of like high level picture of where Planet Nix is and where it's going? 00:07:31.818 --> 00:07:35.018 I mean, I think there's a lot of aspects to it and a lot of things that were 00:07:35.018 --> 00:07:38.258 internal in the community around it and out of it. 00:07:38.318 --> 00:07:42.238 But I think bottom line is just we wanted to keep nurturing and growing and 00:07:42.238 --> 00:07:46.718 bringing Nix to North America, making it a little bit closer to this side of the globe. 00:07:47.098 --> 00:07:52.718 So that was the real first intention for creating a conference on this continent. 00:07:53.618 --> 00:07:56.958 Well, I am sure grateful. You know, we often kind of feel on the West Coast 00:07:56.958 --> 00:07:59.538 like we're a little bit like we get left out of the fun a little bit. 00:07:59.658 --> 00:08:01.758 Especially all the way to Europe where there's so much Nick stuff. 00:08:01.898 --> 00:08:04.638 I have to imagine the first one is going to be kind of also a little bit of 00:08:04.638 --> 00:08:07.278 let's see how it goes, right? The results will speak for themselves and then 00:08:07.278 --> 00:08:08.278 you'll kind of decide the future. 00:08:09.038 --> 00:08:13.978 Yes, 100%. I think what we're trying to do is definitely see how kind of our 00:08:13.978 --> 00:08:15.578 ecosystem here responds to it. 00:08:16.318 --> 00:08:21.638 We have a slight feeling that it's going to be a slightly more Nix at work feeling, 00:08:21.798 --> 00:08:22.658 if that makes sense, right? 00:08:22.798 --> 00:08:27.298 Like folks just seeing at the talks that are coming in from Kelsey Hightower 00:08:27.298 --> 00:08:32.778 doing the opening to folks from Anthropik and, you know, large companies talking 00:08:32.778 --> 00:08:35.758 about their use of Nix and how they're bringing it into their workplace. 00:08:35.878 --> 00:08:38.918 I think it's going to definitely have a different flavor to it. 00:08:38.978 --> 00:08:43.158 And I think that's also why we want to make sure it has a new brand, 00:08:43.498 --> 00:08:46.578 right? there's a kind of like a different vibe to the entire thing. 00:08:46.578 --> 00:08:49.918 It's interesting too because i wonder if that sort of is reflective of where 00:08:49.918 --> 00:08:53.918 nix os adoption is at right now do you think that's maybe there's a connection there. 00:08:53.918 --> 00:08:56.878 Oh 100 i mean we're i think we're seeing 00:08:56.878 --> 00:09:00.098 again year over year we're seeing that crazy amount of 00:09:00.098 --> 00:09:03.458 of growth both on uh usage and 00:09:03.458 --> 00:09:08.018 the chatter and the different companies are coming in to nix coming to flox 00:09:08.018 --> 00:09:12.638 and talking about the you know it's not just about nix itself and even the programming 00:09:12.638 --> 00:09:15.818 language behind it's kind of also about the principles that nix brings in and 00:09:15.818 --> 00:09:20.458 and you're seeing more parts of the marketplace kind of look to adopt it. 00:09:20.458 --> 00:09:24.038 I want to also make people aware of flocks a little bit can you tell me kind 00:09:24.038 --> 00:09:28.818 of the uh elevator pitch for flocks and maybe why you're connected so closely with nix. 00:09:28.818 --> 00:09:32.898 Yeah definitely i mean the elevator pitch is that flocks fox helps abstract 00:09:32.898 --> 00:09:36.358 away the infrastructure complexity from whatever whoever is doing the coding, 00:09:36.498 --> 00:09:40.258 if it's your engineers, if it's the future AI overlords and agents, 00:09:40.438 --> 00:09:42.718 but that's for the non-NICS initiated. 00:09:43.098 --> 00:09:48.978 Bottom line, Phlox started from the fact that we, my co-founder brought NICS 00:09:48.978 --> 00:09:52.898 in for the first enterprise adoption motion almost eight years ago now. 00:09:53.198 --> 00:09:56.318 And our whole thing was, okay, how can we bring NICS to more folks? 00:09:56.418 --> 00:09:57.478 How can we bring it to work? 00:09:58.131 --> 00:10:02.011 And that's where Flux generally started. So for us, it's all about environment 00:10:02.011 --> 00:10:04.971 management up into the build space of what Nix can do for us, 00:10:05.031 --> 00:10:07.991 and then into software supply chain security, where I think those are the three 00:10:07.991 --> 00:10:11.971 rising stars of Nix-based principles, obviously, as a biased person. 00:10:12.431 --> 00:10:15.991 And I think what drew me to Flux and why I was excited to work with you guys 00:10:15.991 --> 00:10:21.011 to do the coverage for this is it's really sort of the evolution of building 00:10:21.011 --> 00:10:24.531 on top of some amazing open source and free software principles. 00:10:24.531 --> 00:10:29.031 And it's not maybe fully consumable for the end consumer like an enterprise, 00:10:29.571 --> 00:10:33.651 but with a little bit of work and a little bit of innovation from a company 00:10:33.651 --> 00:10:37.951 like yours, you can take something so powerful and make it accessible to those groups, 00:10:37.991 --> 00:10:42.811 which is always what happens with this best great free software we see get built 00:10:42.811 --> 00:10:44.991 in the Linux kernel, like WireGuard and other things. 00:10:45.151 --> 00:10:50.111 So that's what I really thought was sort of super great about Phlox and other 00:10:50.111 --> 00:10:53.091 companies in that space is taking Nix and Breen to that next customer. 00:10:53.091 --> 00:10:57.231 This way I don't have to teach every single one of my team members how to debug all of the Nix config. 00:10:57.451 --> 00:10:59.811 Wes knows the pain. He knows the pain. 00:11:00.111 --> 00:11:03.211 Yeah, we've all been there on the Flock side. I think for us, 00:11:03.351 --> 00:11:06.151 it's genuinely Nix is amazing. 00:11:06.371 --> 00:11:11.111 And I obviously wear two hats. And I recommend everyone go check out Nix before they check out Flock. 00:11:11.711 --> 00:11:14.871 But then Flock comes in and it's just, you know, if you want to bring it into 00:11:14.871 --> 00:11:17.331 the workplace where folks don't need to get into the weeds of it, 00:11:17.411 --> 00:11:21.071 that's kind of what we made it for. And obviously there's a bunch of technical 00:11:21.071 --> 00:11:25.251 kind of IP that's built on top to just enable that enterprise access. 00:11:25.411 --> 00:11:29.191 But for us, it's really clear. It's like, if you're coming in, check out Nix. 00:11:29.391 --> 00:11:33.211 And then when you're looking to bring Nix into the enterprise, come check out Phlox. 00:11:33.951 --> 00:11:37.711 And it's kind of like a cyclical motion because even Phlox has some Nix escape 00:11:37.711 --> 00:11:41.131 patches where folks can start diving deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole. 00:11:41.251 --> 00:11:44.451 So there's definitely some ideological open source bit. 00:11:45.391 --> 00:11:48.071 I mean, for sure. It's like, you know, people listening to this show could become 00:11:48.071 --> 00:11:51.051 big Knicks fans, but it's like, how do you convince everybody else at work to 00:11:51.051 --> 00:11:52.231 actually implement this? 00:11:52.331 --> 00:11:54.911 Well, here's something that's actually digestible by them. 00:11:56.575 --> 00:12:00.915 Okay i'm curious outside of the uh you know the keynote with kelsey which i 00:12:00.915 --> 00:12:05.335 think everyone's excited for uh what are you personally most excited for for this planet nix. 00:12:05.335 --> 00:12:08.355 I mean one it's it's honestly just 00:12:08.355 --> 00:12:12.975 building up our our ecosystem on on this side and i know a lot of our awesome 00:12:12.975 --> 00:12:16.375 european friends and from other places are coming over which i think is even 00:12:16.375 --> 00:12:20.415 way more exciting i think you're seeing we mentioned that earlier right you're 00:12:20.415 --> 00:12:25.375 seeing that that adoption of it's It's not even about Nix, it's about the principles, right? 00:12:25.455 --> 00:12:29.035 It's about like, hey, we care about reproducibility, we care about our software. 00:12:29.435 --> 00:12:34.575 Software is becoming insanely more complex, right? We are asking software now to write software. 00:12:35.215 --> 00:12:38.255 And Nix at its core just comes and provides this venue to say, 00:12:38.395 --> 00:12:41.495 hey, let's decomplexify the stack, right? 00:12:41.935 --> 00:12:46.835 And we're seeing more folks truly be intrigued about the concepts here and come 00:12:46.835 --> 00:12:53.575 towards it. So I think just the opportunity to keep growing this front of the globe is number one. 00:12:54.335 --> 00:12:58.875 The second one is, I think there's a few talks I'm pretty excited about. 00:12:58.935 --> 00:13:01.315 Obviously, I'm excited about all the talks and all the speakers coming in. 00:13:01.875 --> 00:13:05.695 But my top of minds that I'm definitely going to be sitting in on are one talk 00:13:05.695 --> 00:13:12.715 from Fareed, who's going to jump into kind of like a concept of Nix is unapologetically fun. 00:13:13.495 --> 00:13:18.015 Farid has a really good way of kind of talking about Nix in a very blunt yet, 00:13:18.095 --> 00:13:21.015 you know, whimsical aspect to it. 00:13:21.155 --> 00:13:26.355 And then there's actually a talk by Anish from Anthropic that I'm pretty excited 00:13:26.355 --> 00:13:30.755 about and how they're using some of the Nix principles to pretty much build the frontier of AI. 00:13:32.029 --> 00:13:34.329 Yeah. Okay. I'm writing both of those down. 00:13:34.429 --> 00:13:35.909 How did I get more excited? I don't know. 00:13:36.469 --> 00:13:42.209 Now, okay. Kind of along these lines, do you have any tips or anything people 00:13:42.209 --> 00:13:44.689 need to know if they're going to show up, if they want to get some work done 00:13:44.689 --> 00:13:45.349 while they're there too? 00:13:45.589 --> 00:13:49.149 Do they need to bring a pencil and paper? What should they know? 00:13:49.249 --> 00:13:50.029 What should they bring with them? 00:13:50.209 --> 00:13:57.529 I mean, first of all, shout out to Elon and the SoCal Linux Expo team, Scale. 00:13:58.149 --> 00:14:01.349 We love them. They help us make this possible. 00:14:01.349 --> 00:14:04.349 The venue is incredible we have uh 00:14:04.349 --> 00:14:07.389 this year we have two two giant rooms for one 00:14:07.389 --> 00:14:11.349 for a workshop so you can get you know down into the details from beginner stuff 00:14:11.349 --> 00:14:16.609 to advance things by nix experts from the globe um and then we have the talk 00:14:16.609 --> 00:14:21.629 track but in the middle there's a huge huge huge kind of like open space where 00:14:21.629 --> 00:14:25.849 we do hacking and birds of a feather and uh flox, 00:14:27.269 --> 00:14:32.629 because Flux is hosting the entire thing we've been giving tables to different projects, 00:14:33.809 --> 00:14:38.029 so there's going to be a lot of that if you're coming in come with like, 00:14:38.889 --> 00:14:44.249 your laptops, come with an open mind come with your biggest problems everyone 00:14:44.249 --> 00:14:49.009 and anyone that's going to be able to help you is probably going to be out there very happy to. 00:14:49.009 --> 00:14:53.869 That's exciting and a GitHub token get your GitHub token sorted out before you show up, 00:14:55.289 --> 00:14:59.029 that'll help too well ron i'm sure you've got a lot of packing to do i have 00:14:59.029 --> 00:15:03.869 an incredible amount of gear to pack we are going to be hosting a dinner saturday night, 00:15:04.329 --> 00:15:07.789 so if you can sneak away for a little bit and uh you know we'll grab you a beer 00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:12.029 100 all right ron thank you for joining us on a sunday and we'll see in a couple of days. 00:15:18.234 --> 00:15:21.794 Well, after all that, I'm getting even more excited for Planet Nix. 00:15:21.954 --> 00:15:25.094 And I've already been taking a sneak peek at some of the talks. 00:15:25.374 --> 00:15:28.774 And I can see already I'm going to have to make some tough choices about which 00:15:28.774 --> 00:15:32.054 ones I attend and which ones I can't make, because some of them happen at the same time. 00:15:32.214 --> 00:15:36.414 But there is a keynote I think everyone's excited for, and we got ourselves 00:15:36.414 --> 00:15:37.554 a little bit of a preview. 00:15:41.294 --> 00:15:44.794 Joining us on the show right now is Kelsey Hightower. And, Kelsey, 00:15:44.894 --> 00:15:48.394 I think people that are listening to this show that are familiar with the whole 00:15:48.394 --> 00:15:50.994 world of Kubernetes probably know who you are. 00:15:51.034 --> 00:15:54.474 But could you give us a brief introduction for folks that are new to you, 00:15:54.534 --> 00:15:55.534 especially like us Nix folks? 00:15:56.274 --> 00:16:02.214 A 25-year veteran, retired about a year and a half ago as a distinguished engineer at Google Cloud. 00:16:02.474 --> 00:16:05.034 A lot of people know me from my work in the container world, 00:16:05.254 --> 00:16:08.054 spent time at CoreOS, a contributor to Kubernetes. 00:16:08.914 --> 00:16:13.994 Before that, I spent time at Puppet Labs working on things like Puppet Configuration Management. 00:16:14.494 --> 00:16:19.054 And then the rest of my career, I probably spent time having jobs like the rest 00:16:19.054 --> 00:16:21.854 of the listeners, from storage administration to software developer. 00:16:22.334 --> 00:16:24.514 Wow, that is fantastic. Down in the trenches. 00:16:25.614 --> 00:16:28.474 And not that we were like, you know, e-stalking you or anything, 00:16:28.634 --> 00:16:34.234 but we did notice in December of 2024 on LinkedIn, you'd posted about dipping 00:16:34.234 --> 00:16:36.674 the toes into Nix, trying out Phlox. 00:16:36.674 --> 00:16:42.034 And one of the things that sort of appealed to me about your talk with Ron is 00:16:42.034 --> 00:16:43.434 this outsider's perspective. 00:16:43.714 --> 00:16:48.094 You have all this experience, but you're coming to Nick's now with sort of fresh eyes. 00:16:48.874 --> 00:16:52.054 And that is intriguing to me because I think it's something we struggle with 00:16:52.054 --> 00:16:55.514 on the show from time to time is just kind of getting outside of that Nick's bubble a bit. 00:16:55.674 --> 00:17:01.174 And I'm just sort of curious to know what getting introduced to the Nick's community 00:17:01.174 --> 00:17:06.994 has been like and how that's gone. Yeah, it looks like there's this whole other world... 00:17:08.073 --> 00:17:12.593 Of software management that went down a different fork in the road. 00:17:13.013 --> 00:17:19.433 Yeah. You know, 15 years ago, I went down the RPM, Debian packages. 00:17:20.753 --> 00:17:22.953 One app per VM to create isolation. 00:17:23.553 --> 00:17:28.293 And it seems like configuration management grew up around that, right? 00:17:28.393 --> 00:17:31.353 Like this idea that you will have lots of these tiny machines. 00:17:31.353 --> 00:17:33.933 So now we need frameworks to manage them all. 00:17:34.133 --> 00:17:39.233 And so if you come from the Linux distribution world, pick your package manager, 00:17:39.713 --> 00:17:41.333 app, git, yum, does it matter? 00:17:41.773 --> 00:17:44.673 And then we got this second wave of package managers, again, 00:17:44.873 --> 00:17:49.393 going down this fork in the road of, we just need a better package manager. 00:17:49.573 --> 00:17:51.693 So if you're Ruby, you have RubyGems. 00:17:51.893 --> 00:17:55.093 If you're Python, you have 7,000 package managers. 00:17:55.473 --> 00:17:58.613 Just figure out what your dependencies need and you'll be all right. 00:17:59.033 --> 00:18:00.613 And none of that really worked. 00:18:01.113 --> 00:18:06.153 But then we came up with things like virtual int, which is these isolated ways 00:18:06.153 --> 00:18:08.973 of having dependencies match the thing you were working on. 00:18:09.093 --> 00:18:13.693 I mean, we went full brute force down this path, which ultimately led to things 00:18:13.693 --> 00:18:16.013 like Docker, right? Docker just says, you know what? 00:18:16.493 --> 00:18:20.873 If this is the path we're on, and the challenge we have with one app per VM 00:18:20.873 --> 00:18:22.333 is that it gets super expensive. 00:18:22.953 --> 00:18:26.433 And if we can just leverage, you know, the low level details, 00:18:26.713 --> 00:18:30.033 like just create isolated file systems, you know, the old school charoot. 00:18:30.553 --> 00:18:36.953 And look, if you want to use RPMs and RubyGems, hell, you can use all of them together. 00:18:37.193 --> 00:18:41.873 And what we'll do is just put them all in one big bundle, call it a container image. 00:18:42.193 --> 00:18:44.673 And then we did something I think that was unique at that time, 00:18:44.793 --> 00:18:49.733 which was we finally decoupled the application from the machine. 00:18:50.273 --> 00:18:54.233 And so when I arrived to Nix, you know, that's like a 20-year path. 00:18:54.733 --> 00:18:57.033 When I get to Nix, Nix is like, hey, wait a minute. 00:18:57.873 --> 00:19:02.293 You don't need to do all of that. What you can do instead is just treat all 00:19:02.293 --> 00:19:07.233 your dependencies as a reusable thing, make them very explicit, 00:19:08.073 --> 00:19:11.493 lay them out on the file system, and then link them when you need them, 00:19:11.573 --> 00:19:14.913 and then you can ignore all this other brute force effort. 00:19:15.213 --> 00:19:19.693 And I'm like, hmm, that's interesting. That would have been good to know 20 00:19:19.693 --> 00:19:21.953 years ago before we went down this road. 00:19:22.673 --> 00:19:25.973 Yeah. I think we've heard a lot of that, especially with folks who are very 00:19:25.973 --> 00:19:29.533 comfortable with Docker, Docker Compose, Kubernetes, and as you mentioned, 00:19:29.753 --> 00:19:32.573 things like Ansible or Puppet and configuration management. They've already 00:19:32.573 --> 00:19:36.233 solved these things at scale, so it's kind of hard to want to unlearn everything. 00:19:36.893 --> 00:19:41.233 100%. And I think that's the big challenge now. So anyone that reads the Nix 00:19:41.233 --> 00:19:45.793 paper now, I think a lot of people will agree that that is a great way of solving the problem. 00:19:46.073 --> 00:19:50.413 You know, the one thing that I'm still trying to comprehend is it just feels 00:19:50.413 --> 00:19:55.553 to me like Nix is still machine-focused, meaning it needs that file system to 00:19:55.553 --> 00:19:59.873 be a first-class entity for anything else to work. And then in many ways, 00:19:59.913 --> 00:20:00.873 you're going to have to modify... 00:20:01.964 --> 00:20:06.424 The binary itself, the startup and linking process, you're going to have to 00:20:06.424 --> 00:20:11.744 do a lot of work that assumes that you have access to the whole chain in order for it to work. 00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:16.724 So I think there's going to be this happy medium between can I create reproducible 00:20:16.724 --> 00:20:19.744 software, but then decide how to distribute it. 00:20:19.864 --> 00:20:24.244 And I think a lot of people now are using, you know, things like Kubernetes, 00:20:24.484 --> 00:20:28.224 which is a way of managing thousands of machines if you wanted to, 00:20:28.504 --> 00:20:30.444 but decoupling the app from the server. 00:20:30.444 --> 00:20:35.704 So you could imagine building a Docker image using Nix as a thing that brings 00:20:35.704 --> 00:20:38.844 in all the dependencies, creates that kind of chain of trust, 00:20:38.964 --> 00:20:41.984 if you will, but then allow me to use other tools to distribute. 00:20:42.144 --> 00:20:45.964 And I think that's the new crossroad that we face, given that Nix is a viable 00:20:45.964 --> 00:20:46.964 solution to this problem. 00:20:47.184 --> 00:20:50.104 Yeah, that strikes me. You know, I think we've got a lot of questions on that 00:20:50.104 --> 00:20:54.164 because it is a kind of new of like Nix being mature enough and the rest of 00:20:54.164 --> 00:20:55.604 the ecosystem to breed them together. 00:20:55.604 --> 00:21:00.264 And then also just, unless you understand kind of both container orchestration 00:21:00.264 --> 00:21:04.164 tech and the NIC side of it, you might see how at the high level it's possible 00:21:04.164 --> 00:21:05.564 to mingle these things productively. 00:21:05.704 --> 00:21:09.104 But actually, how do you go about doing that in a concrete and battle-tested 00:21:09.104 --> 00:21:10.664 way is maybe an open question. 00:21:11.084 --> 00:21:13.704 Yeah, I mean, the answer I've been drawing out, I have my notepad, 00:21:13.804 --> 00:21:16.104 I'm looking at like, what would be the answers to this problem? 00:21:16.904 --> 00:21:20.024 And I just keep going back to thinking about things in layers, right? 00:21:20.084 --> 00:21:24.264 So I think we have the operating system, pick your flavor, you grab your kernel, 00:21:24.644 --> 00:21:26.704 those ABIs tend to be pretty stable. 00:21:27.024 --> 00:21:31.604 But then the next part of this layer has to be that programming language and its runtime. 00:21:31.924 --> 00:21:37.144 So if you're in a JVM, for decades, you've kind of seen yourself somewhat isolated 00:21:37.144 --> 00:21:39.144 from the low-level OS, right? 00:21:39.144 --> 00:21:44.304 You have your class path, the JVM kind of abstracts your app and the bytecode 00:21:44.304 --> 00:21:47.244 away from the machine in hopefully a portable way. 00:21:47.364 --> 00:21:50.564 And then you have things like Golang that takes us to the extreme, 00:21:50.804 --> 00:21:55.724 that builds your app with the runtime bundled in and all of its dependencies, 00:21:56.144 --> 00:21:59.084 even to the point where you're not even relying on libc sometimes. 00:21:59.304 --> 00:22:03.524 So now you have these languages that are also self-contained, 00:22:04.084 --> 00:22:05.744 building statically linked binaries. 00:22:06.144 --> 00:22:09.544 And so you ask yourself, like, what use does Nix have? And the truth is, 00:22:09.644 --> 00:22:13.124 there's still some use because not every app is going to be written and going. 00:22:13.444 --> 00:22:16.224 Not every app is going to create a statically linked executable. 00:22:16.544 --> 00:22:19.724 And also there's this trust problem. And this is where I think Nix jumps in. 00:22:20.064 --> 00:22:23.424 The trust problem is we have all of these dependencies. 00:22:23.924 --> 00:22:28.124 We're not sure who they're written by. We're not sure what version they're at. 00:22:28.264 --> 00:22:31.364 And so on one hand, we're trying to create things like S-bombs. 00:22:31.444 --> 00:22:35.424 If you haven't heard of those, this is this idea that we can produce a software 00:22:35.424 --> 00:22:38.264 bill of materials when you buy a car or TV. 00:22:39.024 --> 00:22:42.044 Ideally, someone knows every component and where it came from. 00:22:42.184 --> 00:22:46.164 So if there's a need for a recall or to make sure that those things are safe, 00:22:46.404 --> 00:22:48.924 we can always go back to those hardware bill of materials. 00:22:49.544 --> 00:22:52.204 And that's what we're trying to do on this side. But how would you use them 00:22:52.204 --> 00:22:55.784 together? I think a logical first step for a lot of people is. 00:22:56.540 --> 00:23:02.000 If you take Nix as the trust layer, meaning you trust that Nix packages are 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.140 built by people that are doing the right thing, they're building from source, 00:23:06.360 --> 00:23:08.180 there's a lot of transparency with that. 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:12.380 If I can take the Nix build process and let's say stick it inside of a Docker 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:18.440 file, so in this case, Nix would be replacing RPM, Nix would be replacing kind 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.900 of my ad hoc pulling things from GitHub and putting them in a particular directory. 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.800 Instead, you would say, all right, let's use Nix because Nix is going to give 00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:34.660 me hopefully a reproducible way of building my software and having that then sit inside of an image. 00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:39.820 So for the Docker people out there, you will still push your Docker image to a Docker registry. 00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:44.520 You can run it in a serverless platform. You can run it on a VM like you're used to. 00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:50.180 But when you peer inside of it, now the Nix ecosystem opens up to you and you 00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:54.400 have a lot more transparency on how things are linking to other things. 00:23:54.560 --> 00:23:58.700 And I think that will be a really pragmatic next step for people coming from 00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:02.420 the Nix world or coming from the Docker world and looking for a little bit more 00:24:02.420 --> 00:24:06.300 transparency at the library and dependency layer. 00:24:06.600 --> 00:24:09.580 Yeah, I think especially, you know, anyone who's had to look backwards and try 00:24:09.580 --> 00:24:12.500 to piece together, maybe it's a couple different layers of Docker files, 00:24:12.580 --> 00:24:15.700 and one of them's pulling from Alpine, and one of them's a custom node or a Go builder. 00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:19.120 And then all of that kind of gets munched together into one final layer. 00:24:20.100 --> 00:24:22.680 If a lot of that was Nix, yeah, maybe you'd have to learn next, 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:24.440 but it might be a little easier to introspect. 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:28.780 Yeah, that's the big opportunity. Can these two worlds merge? 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:30.200 And I think that's going to be key. 00:24:30.380 --> 00:24:34.780 User experience tends to dominate the tooling in this space because a lot of 00:24:34.780 --> 00:24:38.960 people are just not that interested in like building software. Let's just be honest. 00:24:39.100 --> 00:24:42.820 Most people are interested in capturing their ideas in their IDE, 00:24:43.620 --> 00:24:48.060 turning that into an artifact that they can ship to their customers and users and being done with it. 00:24:48.320 --> 00:24:51.440 And so if we make them focus way too much on this low level detail, 00:24:52.040 --> 00:24:53.420 my guess is they will skip it. 00:24:53.820 --> 00:24:56.020 Right, I'm trying to get this feature done. There's a lot of pressure on me. 00:24:56.120 --> 00:24:58.220 I really don't have time to learn this thing that I don't really care about 00:24:58.220 --> 00:24:59.980 build systems anyway. They're just a detail. 00:25:00.740 --> 00:25:05.700 100%. I mean, the other, I think, equation here is how many people or different 00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:10.340 entities do we need repackaging the same software, right? Debian does this work for themselves. 00:25:10.780 --> 00:25:13.780 Red Hat does this work for themselves. The Gentoo community, 00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:16.540 let's not forget about them. They do this work for themselves. 00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:20.520 And now you have kind of the Nix maintainers doing all of this work for themselves. 00:25:20.520 --> 00:25:24.000 And I think the tricky bit here is if I go look at a NICS package. 00:25:25.180 --> 00:25:30.440 I have to ask myself, who is this person that packaged this upstream software? 00:25:30.780 --> 00:25:33.260 And typically what I find, it's not the maintainer. 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:37.800 And so now we're adding this additional layer of trust, like did this person 00:25:37.800 --> 00:25:43.140 do something in between what the source code and the maintainer had in mind 00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:45.800 to what's finally inside of this next package? 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.860 And that's the part that the industry is still trying to work out. 00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:54.220 Can we have a really reliable software train of trust? 00:25:54.220 --> 00:25:57.520 And that's where I think things get tricky and also what happens when packages 00:25:57.520 --> 00:26:02.380 go unmaintained and so you also have the quality question is this the best place 00:26:02.380 --> 00:26:05.880 to get this software or should I just go get the sources and build it myself, 00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:10.460 right and you know even now we've seen somewhat I think of a rise of more projects 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:14.900 on GitHub having a default.nix or a flake.nix file but as you say there's still 00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:18.640 that question of okay well if I go with them maybe it's oriented for like nightly 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.200 development or exactly how they want it but then if I go with maybe the nix 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:24.620 packages version or some other downstream Well, 00:26:24.700 --> 00:26:27.840 that's been maybe massaged a bit to fit more comfortably with the assumptions 00:26:27.840 --> 00:26:30.520 of the rest of the system and trade-offs abound. 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:34.520 100%. This doesn't sound like somebody who's retired, Kelsey, 00:26:34.620 --> 00:26:37.340 I have to say. You said you started by saying you're retired. 00:26:37.940 --> 00:26:42.660 There's no retirement. What I've learned is you will always do work. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.800 It's just how much control over the work do you have? 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:50.240 And for me, that means I like to do my own cleaning. I've learned some trade 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:55.060 skills, everything from pulling permits to running my own electrical wires to 00:26:55.060 --> 00:26:59.540 patching up the drywall and spraying texture on it so it matches the surrounding area. 00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:03.860 And to me, I think that's the thing that you work for, right? 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.200 The idea is that you want to work on things that you think make the most impact. 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:10.520 So in this capacity, that's going to be a lot of startup advising. 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.560 You know, I still love the conference speaking. And look, I still have a knack 00:27:14.560 --> 00:27:17.760 for learning new technologies and putting my hands on the keyboard. 00:27:18.932 --> 00:27:22.572 Yeah, and I really appreciate your perspective on this, and it makes me even 00:27:22.572 --> 00:27:24.752 more excited to see the talk with Ron. 00:27:25.812 --> 00:27:28.052 Kelsey, is there anything else you want to touch on before we run? 00:27:28.292 --> 00:27:31.372 No, I think, you know, people always ask me, like, what's the future of this? 00:27:31.512 --> 00:27:33.492 What's the future of containers? What's the future of Nix? 00:27:33.672 --> 00:27:37.992 And it's like, well, look, the future is typically determined by the people working on it. 00:27:38.312 --> 00:27:43.092 And so if you're working on Nix, it's on you to kind of draw that line from 00:27:43.092 --> 00:27:45.832 where you are right now and what you want the future to be. 00:27:46.532 --> 00:27:49.512 And there are people, if you're listening, they're giving you feedback. 00:27:49.972 --> 00:27:51.792 Here's why I can't use Nix. 00:27:52.632 --> 00:27:55.472 Here's where I've tried to use Nix and it didn't work for me. 00:27:56.052 --> 00:28:01.452 If you listen to those things in earnest and you chip away at removing that 00:28:01.452 --> 00:28:04.892 friction, and look, you're competing, whether you know it or not, 00:28:04.992 --> 00:28:07.452 you're competing with all the other solutions out there. 00:28:07.692 --> 00:28:12.012 And if you take those two things and create a feedback loop and you solve those 00:28:12.012 --> 00:28:15.492 problems, then you will decide what the future of Nix is. 00:28:15.492 --> 00:28:19.992 And if it's usable, if it lives up to its promises, you might just find a world 00:28:19.992 --> 00:28:25.732 where, I don't know, 30, 50% of Docker images are using Nix at the base layer 00:28:25.732 --> 00:28:29.432 to provide the solution to reproducible software. 00:28:29.992 --> 00:28:33.592 And just make sure you zoom out and understand the big picture. 00:28:33.732 --> 00:28:37.192 Where does Nix fit in and what people are trying to do every day? 00:28:37.332 --> 00:28:40.132 And I think those are just the huge takeaways as a technologist. 00:28:40.292 --> 00:28:43.972 I love the tech. I love it's cool. I know some people have a printed out version 00:28:43.972 --> 00:28:47.632 of the original Nick's white paper and sit next to them like the Bible. 00:28:48.152 --> 00:28:51.692 But you got to remember, that's just one component of the whole. 00:28:51.912 --> 00:28:56.352 And whoever bridges that gap will determine what the future looks like. 00:28:57.472 --> 00:28:59.532 Thank you, sir. Appreciate it very much. 00:29:05.932 --> 00:29:13.252 OnePassword.com slash unplugged. That is the number one password.com slash unplugged, all lowercase. 00:29:13.552 --> 00:29:17.532 You got to check it out. Imagine your company security like the quad of a college 00:29:17.532 --> 00:29:21.512 campus or anywhere you've been where there's those nice paths that the designers 00:29:21.512 --> 00:29:27.132 built, the brick or cement paths between the buildings, all thoughtfully designed and laid out. 00:29:27.372 --> 00:29:30.792 Think of those as like the company-owned devices, the IT-approved apps, 00:29:31.072 --> 00:29:34.232 the things you actually have your hands around, like managed employee identities. 00:29:34.812 --> 00:29:39.052 And then everywhere you go, there's also those paths that people actually use, 00:29:39.112 --> 00:29:43.372 the shortcuts that have worn through the grass and turn out to actually be the 00:29:43.372 --> 00:29:45.152 straightest line from point A to point B. 00:29:46.092 --> 00:29:50.932 Those are unmanaged devices, shadow IT apps, and non-employee identities like contractors. 00:29:52.032 --> 00:29:57.172 There's just all these incentives in the world for users to inevitably drift this way. 00:29:57.332 --> 00:30:01.312 And most security tools today work like that stuff doesn't exist, 00:30:01.312 --> 00:30:03.912 Like we only use the happy brick paths. 00:30:05.323 --> 00:30:09.763 But we all know the reality is that security problems take place on the shortcuts. 00:30:11.123 --> 00:30:15.163 That's where 1Password Extended Access Management comes in. 00:30:15.303 --> 00:30:18.843 It is the first security solution that brings all of these unmanaged devices, 00:30:19.083 --> 00:30:21.143 apps, and identities under your control. 00:30:21.283 --> 00:30:24.243 It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, 00:30:24.243 --> 00:30:29.263 and every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible. 00:30:29.903 --> 00:30:33.663 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems that traditional IAMs 00:30:33.663 --> 00:30:37.323 and MDMs were built back in my day, just don't solve. 00:30:37.763 --> 00:30:41.943 It's security for the way we actually work today with 1Password Extended Access Management. 00:30:42.083 --> 00:30:45.543 And it's generally available for companies with Okta, Microsoft Entra, 00:30:45.663 --> 00:30:48.403 and it is in beta for Google Workspace customers, too. 00:30:48.723 --> 00:30:52.763 Now, we all know what a game changer a password manager has been for the workplace, 00:30:52.763 --> 00:30:54.583 and 1Password's definitely one of those. 00:30:54.763 --> 00:30:58.643 They're one of the best out there. and you have the confidence that 1Password 00:30:58.643 --> 00:31:02.343 is getting regularly audits with third-party audits and the industry's largest 00:31:02.343 --> 00:31:05.203 bug bounty so that way when they catch stuff, they catch it fast. 00:31:05.643 --> 00:31:10.643 Secure every app, secure every device and every identity, even the unmanaged ones. 00:31:10.823 --> 00:31:14.303 Go to 1Password.com slash unplugged, all lowercase. 00:31:14.503 --> 00:31:16.903 You can check it out. They've got more information there and it's a great way 00:31:16.903 --> 00:31:21.483 to support this show. That's 1Password.com slash unplugged. 00:31:25.123 --> 00:31:27.843 Well chris as you mentioned scale is coming up it's 00:31:27.843 --> 00:31:31.083 one of my favorite times of the year and we've been going for years now 00:31:31.083 --> 00:31:35.763 and i think you both would agree it's just a highlight of the year as well this 00:31:35.763 --> 00:31:40.063 time around we're lucky to have another guest joining us this episode one of 00:31:40.063 --> 00:31:46.363 the legends of scale who's been helping there for oh a decade now and giving 00:31:46.363 --> 00:31:48.403 us a little insight into the tech. 00:31:52.765 --> 00:31:58.645 Scale is just days away, and one of the things that makes it one of the best 00:31:58.645 --> 00:32:05.225 events is it routinely has solid networking, which you can't say for most events, 00:32:05.365 --> 00:32:07.225 let alone community-run events. 00:32:07.405 --> 00:32:11.765 And I think one of the keys to that success, especially over the last nearly 00:32:11.765 --> 00:32:16.605 10 years, has been Scale's tech chair, and Rob joins us on the show now. 00:32:16.705 --> 00:32:17.945 Rob, welcome to the Unplugged program. 00:32:18.805 --> 00:32:22.205 Hey, Chris, Wes, Frank. Great to be here. 00:32:22.765 --> 00:32:23.605 Hello, hello, sir. 00:32:23.745 --> 00:32:24.065 Hello. 00:32:24.605 --> 00:32:28.545 So you're just a few days out. Are you at peak anxiety right now? 00:32:28.545 --> 00:32:31.765 Are you feeling like everything's kind of going as expected? 00:32:32.505 --> 00:32:39.625 You know, I'm feeling pretty good. Things are busy, but not up to my eyeballs 00:32:39.625 --> 00:32:41.545 and, say, tech debt or anything. 00:32:41.805 --> 00:32:43.925 The team works year-round. 00:32:44.365 --> 00:32:48.905 We do a couple of work parties to prepare for the conference. 00:32:48.905 --> 00:32:57.585 Uh so we've we've been able to do uh three three to four this year um and everything's 00:32:57.585 --> 00:33:03.465 looking pretty good uh and yeah we're we're i'm just packing up the car and 00:33:03.465 --> 00:33:07.725 i'll be heading heading to pasadena uh this evening okay. 00:33:07.725 --> 00:33:11.265 You mentioned a team there what's the how many folks you got all working to make this happen. 00:33:11.265 --> 00:33:14.505 So we've got about 30 folks uh that 00:33:14.505 --> 00:33:17.905 are contributing in various ways from cabling to 00:33:17.905 --> 00:33:21.765 the networking to servers access points 00:33:21.765 --> 00:33:28.825 even signage so that's yeah it's really just a group effort some folks are working 00:33:28.825 --> 00:33:35.685 across these multiple sub teams but we've really got a great group that's you 00:33:35.685 --> 00:33:40.385 know really focused on making sure that the conference is you know as good as 00:33:40.385 --> 00:33:41.665 it could be for our attendees. 00:33:42.365 --> 00:33:44.065 And is everyone volunteer, Rob? 00:33:44.725 --> 00:33:48.705 Yes. Yeah, actually, the entire conference is volunteer run. 00:33:50.085 --> 00:33:54.225 The thing we like to say is that it's the largest community run open source 00:33:54.225 --> 00:33:55.565 conference in North America. 00:33:56.756 --> 00:34:01.356 I mean, the organization alone of just getting these work parties organized 00:34:01.356 --> 00:34:03.416 throughout the year is really commendable. 00:34:03.576 --> 00:34:06.576 It's hard to manage a team that size, even when they report to you because you're 00:34:06.576 --> 00:34:07.976 paying them, let alone their volunteers. 00:34:09.296 --> 00:34:12.496 Yeah, I mean, as long as it's fun, I think people want to come back. 00:34:12.676 --> 00:34:13.996 They want to learn new things. 00:34:14.636 --> 00:34:18.936 You know, a lot of folks, maybe they start out on the cabling team and then 00:34:18.936 --> 00:34:24.456 make their way to maybe helping out with signage or, you know, 00:34:24.516 --> 00:34:27.016 learning some things about, you know, Linux administration. 00:34:28.776 --> 00:34:33.556 So I think that's really one of the selling points is, you know, 00:34:33.616 --> 00:34:38.556 you can get your hands dirty with some of the tech that you might not otherwise have at hand. 00:34:39.356 --> 00:34:40.836 Does it help for their resume too? 00:34:41.036 --> 00:34:45.676 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the things that, 00:34:45.776 --> 00:34:51.196 you know, that's why I started to show up nine, ten years ago was I was thinking, 00:34:51.376 --> 00:34:55.476 hey, you know, I don't necessarily get to do a lot of these things day to day. 00:34:56.216 --> 00:35:02.036 You know, a lot of at the time my job was on AWS and I was kind of losing some 00:35:02.036 --> 00:35:09.276 of the things that you were doing within a physical data center. Hands on stuff. 00:35:09.356 --> 00:35:10.276 Yeah, the racking and stacking. 00:35:10.976 --> 00:35:12.196 Exactly. Exactly. 00:35:12.636 --> 00:35:13.436 I follow you. 00:35:13.576 --> 00:35:17.496 I wanted to get back into that. And then also, you kind of add in the little 00:35:17.496 --> 00:35:20.296 bit of the stress factor where you've got to get this thing, 00:35:20.616 --> 00:35:24.596 you get this network set up in, you know, four days, right? 00:35:24.676 --> 00:35:28.516 We show up on Monday, and it's got to be ready to go by Thursday. 00:35:29.136 --> 00:35:31.576 You know, this almost sounds like a TV show kind of set up. 00:35:31.756 --> 00:35:35.116 Yeah, like a reality. It could be a reality show. Yeah, they should maybe stop 00:35:35.116 --> 00:35:37.896 doing the America's Talent thing and just film you guys. 00:35:38.016 --> 00:35:41.656 I mean, it's because it's not only do you have like just a few days to get it working. 00:35:42.606 --> 00:35:48.746 But it's a serious job for Wi-Fi, like the all the devices people have now, especially this crowd. 00:35:49.286 --> 00:35:53.346 I'd love to know a little bit about the back end system that makes it actually work. 00:35:53.726 --> 00:35:59.206 Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things that you mentioned the Wi-Fi and one of 00:35:59.206 --> 00:36:05.746 the big things that has happened this year in partnership with OpenWRT and the 00:36:05.746 --> 00:36:12.106 Software Freedom Conservancy was the partnership that got us 120. 00:36:12.606 --> 00:36:15.266 Uh open wrt ones so we'll be 00:36:15.266 --> 00:36:21.546 deploying those across the conference as our access points so that we'll have 00:36:21.546 --> 00:36:27.546 wi-fi six uh and just to make sure that the connectivity is as best as we can 00:36:27.546 --> 00:36:34.186 make it uh while still having a open source uh software stack and hardware stack. 00:36:34.186 --> 00:36:38.306 Wow that is so you know okay so two things strike me first of all that's so 00:36:38.306 --> 00:36:42.486 perfect for a conference like this But second of all, I thought I recalled last 00:36:42.486 --> 00:36:45.606 year there was a pretty big back-end switch over to like NixOS. 00:36:45.866 --> 00:36:51.126 Like it sounds like every year there's a pretty big infrastructure switch is on the table. 00:36:51.466 --> 00:36:56.046 Yeah, there's a lot of iteration, right? So we have a year to kind of think 00:36:56.046 --> 00:37:01.626 about, okay, how did things go last year? What can we do better next year? 00:37:01.886 --> 00:37:06.226 And then just start to chip away at that over the course of these work parties 00:37:06.226 --> 00:37:12.226 and just, you know, async or remote communication, you know, throughout the year. 00:37:12.686 --> 00:37:17.346 So is there a process during this if somebody wants to do kind of a wild card, 00:37:17.506 --> 00:37:22.726 like swap out all the Wi-Fi hardware or, you know, put everything in crazy VMs or use NixOS? 00:37:22.946 --> 00:37:26.026 Like, is there like this process where somebody pitches it and then has to like 00:37:26.026 --> 00:37:27.606 win everybody over? How does that work? 00:37:27.606 --> 00:37:32.506 Like, I think it's a little bit of a, yeah, you got to sell the idea, right? 00:37:32.586 --> 00:37:38.186 You can't just have this crazy idea and, you know, then even if you wanted to 00:37:38.186 --> 00:37:40.566 implement it, does it really work for the attendees, right? 00:37:40.666 --> 00:37:44.826 So we've got to make sure that this is good for the folks that are showing up 00:37:44.826 --> 00:37:48.026 to scale that are going to be able to enjoy the conference. It's got to work. 00:37:48.826 --> 00:37:52.746 So proof of concepts are always welcome. and then we just kind of iterate on 00:37:52.746 --> 00:37:57.666 it from there and just try to figure out, does this fit for what we're doing? 00:37:58.466 --> 00:38:00.766 There's a couple of folks that 00:38:00.766 --> 00:38:06.466 have been doing this just as long as I have across the various platforms, 00:38:07.172 --> 00:38:10.392 things in the conference you know whether that be signage or the 00:38:10.392 --> 00:38:13.372 servers or the network and so 00:38:13.372 --> 00:38:16.372 we just kind of try to figure out okay if this can fit 00:38:16.372 --> 00:38:19.092 is this an appropriate next step in 00:38:19.092 --> 00:38:24.292 the next evolution and the you know you mentioned chris the the switch to to 00:38:24.292 --> 00:38:32.352 nix os um you know i i've done a little bit of uh the the server side management 00:38:32.352 --> 00:38:37.052 like i've been the one that's managing some some of the services. 00:38:38.132 --> 00:38:42.972 And I just made that switch because we had had some other difficulties with 00:38:42.972 --> 00:38:44.892 the previous tools that we were deploying. 00:38:45.512 --> 00:38:49.992 And it was the, I think, the most stable thing we could go to. 00:38:50.652 --> 00:38:54.412 And that's the other thing is it's, you know, from my perspective, 00:38:54.512 --> 00:38:57.192 if it's stable and boring, that's fantastic. 00:38:57.672 --> 00:39:01.332 A lot of these services are, you know, they're core networking services, 00:39:01.332 --> 00:39:06.152 so they have to work or else really no one's going to be able to present or 00:39:06.152 --> 00:39:10.752 be able to, you know, just kind of have basic network functions. 00:39:11.212 --> 00:39:15.392 So, you know, running that stuff on NixOS gets us those guarantees. 00:39:15.752 --> 00:39:19.592 That was, you know, from a group or team perspective, that was, 00:39:19.752 --> 00:39:23.212 I think, a pretty straightforward next step for us. 00:39:23.452 --> 00:39:29.032 And a lot of the folks are also in the NixOS community, the Nix community, 00:39:29.032 --> 00:39:32.772 and everybody was pretty on board with that. 00:39:33.252 --> 00:39:35.952 And you got the Planet Nick's crew there, so you got some of the heavy hitters 00:39:35.952 --> 00:39:37.472 in case something really goes sideways, right? 00:39:37.892 --> 00:39:45.112 Yeah, we've got plenty of folks on hand should something really come up that we were stumped on. 00:39:45.672 --> 00:39:49.412 So I was wondering, and maybe this does happen, I don't know how you'd have 00:39:49.412 --> 00:39:53.892 the bandwidth for it, but do other conferences like Texas Linux Fest or others, 00:39:53.972 --> 00:39:57.152 do they reach out to your expertise and be like, can you help us have a great 00:39:57.152 --> 00:39:59.232 Wi-Fi and networking and internet setup? 00:39:59.752 --> 00:40:03.312 You know, we've offered that. No one's taken us up on it. 00:40:04.547 --> 00:40:08.147 But that that would be i think a really awesome partnership 00:40:08.147 --> 00:40:11.667 to have you know the the equipment we don't 00:40:11.667 --> 00:40:14.587 have a use for it except for the you 00:40:14.587 --> 00:40:18.887 know the four days uh for scale so if 00:40:18.887 --> 00:40:21.707 it can be used elsewhere you know that we 00:40:21.707 --> 00:40:25.747 would be happy to figure out how to make that work and that's also why you know 00:40:25.747 --> 00:40:32.687 all of the the code all of the utilities and and the um scripts and things that 00:40:32.687 --> 00:40:39.707 we have that go into building the conference and provisioning it and running it are also open. 00:40:40.547 --> 00:40:48.107 And that's kind of the whole intent is someone could take this and then apply it. 00:40:48.227 --> 00:40:52.867 Maybe that, like you said, if that's Texas Linux Fest or another conference, 00:40:52.867 --> 00:40:58.207 that's definitely something that we're interested in figuring out how to make work. 00:40:58.487 --> 00:41:03.047 Rob, I owe you a beer or three. So if you're around Saturday, 00:41:03.367 --> 00:41:07.507 7 p.m., we're doing a meetup and we're going to have a dinner and we'd love to buy you a beer, too. 00:41:07.907 --> 00:41:11.127 Oh, fantastic. I will be there. That sounds awesome. 00:41:11.427 --> 00:41:14.507 Good, good, good. Well, Rob, thank you so much for sharing all this with us. 00:41:14.667 --> 00:41:16.627 And I look forward to actually seeing you at the event. 00:41:17.287 --> 00:41:20.127 And we just really appreciate the work you and the whole team does. 00:41:20.887 --> 00:41:23.947 I gained a much better insight and appreciation for the level of work. 00:41:24.007 --> 00:41:26.847 You know, especially as tech folks here, it's just so nice to have us all work 00:41:26.847 --> 00:41:28.507 and not have to be involved with it at all. 00:41:30.007 --> 00:41:33.487 Well we're happy to do it you know we just want to make sure that there's, 00:41:34.027 --> 00:41:37.547 uh you know a great experience for all of the attendees and 00:41:37.547 --> 00:41:40.987 just keep that going forward year after year so i 00:41:40.987 --> 00:41:45.867 hope everybody uh that's going to be there enjoys the conference and swing by 00:41:45.867 --> 00:41:50.127 the knock if you want to check out anything about you know what goes into the 00:41:50.127 --> 00:41:55.107 network i'm happy to give a behind the scenes tour uh so just go ahead and find 00:41:55.107 --> 00:41:58.487 me uh we'll be in the conference building Very good. 00:41:58.667 --> 00:41:59.007 Thank you, Rob. 00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.080 Jupyterbroadcasting.com slash river that's 00:42:10.080 --> 00:42:12.880 where i recommend you buy sats that's where i buy my 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:16.120 sats river makes it easy to get started with bitcoin in three 00:42:16.120 --> 00:42:19.040 simple steps and with river you get zero fee 00:42:19.040 --> 00:42:22.300 reoccurring buys you set it and forget it you just automatically stack 00:42:22.300 --> 00:42:27.300 bitcoin without paying a dime in fees and one of my absolute favorite features 00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:32.300 is their 3.8 percent interest on cash your cash earns yield paid in bitcoin 00:42:32.300 --> 00:42:39.200 no gimmicks just more sats and it makes it super easy to smash by on a dip with a target price order. 00:42:39.380 --> 00:42:42.260 They also have free auto withdrawal to self-custody. 00:42:42.560 --> 00:42:46.020 I am a big believer in self-custody. 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Thank you Mike for sending a little note. 00:43:45.857 --> 00:43:51.197 It reads, Hey guys, it's been far too long since I've been able to hang out with the Lupp family. 00:43:51.437 --> 00:43:56.197 I'll be attending and speaking at both Planet Nix and LinuxFest Northwest this 00:43:56.197 --> 00:43:59.437 year and really hope to see as many JB community folks as possible. 00:43:59.977 --> 00:44:04.897 The talk I'm giving at both events is called Building a Chromebook Replacement with NixOS. 00:44:05.517 --> 00:44:06.977 Ha ha ha. Love it. 00:44:07.117 --> 00:44:11.637 I've been working on it for about a year, and it's my attempt at a Nix OS that 00:44:11.637 --> 00:44:15.877 you can give to your kids or parents who know nothing about Linux or Nix. 00:44:16.197 --> 00:44:20.517 It's a Chromebook-type experience without all the creepy Google stuff. 00:44:20.517 --> 00:44:24.737 If anyone wants to check it out, the project or the talk, I'd love all your feedback. 00:44:24.997 --> 00:44:28.637 But most of all, really, I can't wait to hang out with the JB crew again. 00:44:29.117 --> 00:44:32.097 Oh, Olympia Mike, I hope you can make it to our Saturday dinner. 00:44:32.517 --> 00:44:37.797 Check out his project. It's github.com slash Mike Kelly XP slash Nick's book. 00:44:37.917 --> 00:44:39.217 We'll put a link in the show notes too. 00:44:39.677 --> 00:44:43.157 Good to hear from you, Olympia, Mike, and looking forward to seeing you and 00:44:43.157 --> 00:44:45.397 looking forward to your talk too. 00:44:45.597 --> 00:44:48.797 I think it's a great project. And I know you've been iterating for more than 00:44:48.797 --> 00:44:50.337 a year. You've been iterating on the idea. 00:44:50.657 --> 00:44:57.097 One of the things Mike does is he goes out and finds discarded but still quite usable old ThinkPads. 00:44:57.217 --> 00:45:00.057 And he's been iterating on this idea with those too for a couple of years. 00:45:00.217 --> 00:45:02.017 So Chromebook idea is a great angle. 00:45:02.017 --> 00:45:05.717 I love it, too, because we've all talked about personal successes with being 00:45:05.717 --> 00:45:10.037 able to deploy things like NixOS for family and friends. And this is just taking 00:45:10.037 --> 00:45:13.457 that to the next level where, you know, you don't even need the curated levels 00:45:13.457 --> 00:45:14.517 of support that we provide. 00:45:14.617 --> 00:45:15.317 Yeah, it's pretty great. 00:45:20.757 --> 00:45:23.897 Well, we don't have any baller boosts this week, but we still have some great 00:45:23.897 --> 00:45:29.497 boosts to read, and Promise Kunix comes in with 2001 sats. 00:45:31.377 --> 00:45:31.837 Promiscunix! 00:45:32.017 --> 00:45:36.457 I thought you had a read on that. First time boosting, I think, at least live. 00:45:36.637 --> 00:45:40.177 Keep up the Knicks love and watch out for my new Knicks YouTube channel coming 00:45:40.177 --> 00:45:42.317 for newcomers to Knicks. Love you guys. 00:45:42.537 --> 00:45:47.677 Yeah, this was actually a live boost that just missed our live boost cutoff last episode. 00:45:47.817 --> 00:45:49.637 Top of the stack. Thank you. 00:45:50.217 --> 00:45:54.697 Maybe boost us back or send us another way, your channel, when you get it all 00:45:54.697 --> 00:45:55.957 going, because we'd love to promote that. 00:45:56.117 --> 00:46:00.057 Yeah. Once you've got it launched, send us a boost and let us know. We'll promote it. 00:46:01.637 --> 00:46:07.097 Lime Elephant comes in with 5,000 sats. Got a challenge idea. 00:46:07.897 --> 00:46:12.817 Daily drive a scrollable tiling window manager, like Paper WM, 00:46:13.037 --> 00:46:15.617 Neary, or Carousel, for at least two weeks. 00:46:15.957 --> 00:46:18.657 Not as hard as BSD, but it could be fun. 00:46:19.177 --> 00:46:21.117 Hmm. This is an interesting one, actually. 00:46:21.337 --> 00:46:24.757 I like this, too, because there's always a background pressure on Chris from 00:46:24.757 --> 00:46:27.197 the audience to, like, you know, just go tiling already. 00:46:27.557 --> 00:46:32.017 Paper WM is a GNOME shell extension which provides a scrollable tiling of windows 00:46:32.017 --> 00:46:34.277 and per-monitor workspaces. 00:46:34.357 --> 00:46:34.677 Hey. 00:46:35.977 --> 00:46:38.857 It's inspired by paper notebooks and tiling window managers. 00:46:39.157 --> 00:46:40.377 Technically an extension. 00:46:41.237 --> 00:46:44.697 It's a large tent built on top of the GNOME desktop rather than merely extending it. 00:46:45.817 --> 00:46:51.077 Okay. All right. This is weird, but I think worth considering. 00:46:51.517 --> 00:46:53.157 Looking at screenshots, it's a little weird. 00:46:54.317 --> 00:46:56.897 But I think we'll put it up for discussion when we get back. 00:46:56.997 --> 00:46:59.177 I like that. That's a good suggestion. Thank you for the boost. 00:46:59.337 --> 00:47:01.977 Well, Soham sent in 3,000 Satoshis. 00:47:04.821 --> 00:47:09.521 A little bit of an opinion here. They read, I'm sorry, but this needs to be done. 00:47:09.801 --> 00:47:10.141 Uh-oh. 00:47:10.341 --> 00:47:15.101 The matrix protocol is far too complex, and the implementation is just bad. 00:47:15.581 --> 00:47:20.561 Firstly, I don't need a miracle dags happening each time I send a shitpost meme. 00:47:21.081 --> 00:47:26.061 Then, what are the room upgrades? Also, if Synapse source code is readable, 00:47:26.281 --> 00:47:28.381 then I am the king of France. 00:47:28.641 --> 00:47:31.901 For the longest time, they had an environment variable which they themselves 00:47:31.901 --> 00:47:33.301 didn't know the behavior of. 00:47:33.301 --> 00:47:38.581 Dendrite replacing synapses like ibv6 replacing v4 and we know how that goes, 00:47:39.861 --> 00:47:45.521 i recently found out they anyway don't bridge with the most popular irc liberal 00:47:45.521 --> 00:47:49.001 chat no wonder they keep running out of money every two years that's. 00:47:49.001 --> 00:47:55.621 A solid spicy take that's a that's a hot take and um boy what do i think i do 00:47:55.621 --> 00:48:01.621 kind of agree dendrite replacing was sort of a uh I guess a mislead. 00:48:01.721 --> 00:48:05.161 Like, I'm glad we didn't go down that route now that it's sort of end of life. 00:48:05.381 --> 00:48:11.961 Yeah. And I mean, I'm impressed in many ways with Synapse, but it is a sprawling app. That is for sure. 00:48:12.921 --> 00:48:16.581 And I think that, you know, I don't need a Merkle, Dag, et cetera comment. 00:48:17.621 --> 00:48:21.481 I interpret that one way is sort of hitting on that thing I said, right? 00:48:21.521 --> 00:48:24.681 Like, I think maybe the goals, the enterprise-y goals of Matrix are not what 00:48:24.681 --> 00:48:25.961 everyone is looking for necessarily. 00:48:26.281 --> 00:48:31.321 And to solve that maximum case has meant, you know, a complicated implementation. 00:48:31.821 --> 00:48:36.761 I love that boost. That's great. Thank you very much. Magnolia Mayhem's here with 2000, one set. 00:48:38.160 --> 00:48:42.840 Well, I finally got bound and fixed right before you guys skip a week. Oh, face bomb. 00:48:43.580 --> 00:48:47.720 With that the case, I'll just hold off on my BSD boost and tell you about my monitor setup. 00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:52.520 I've always had at least two. My optimal setup was three horizontal screens 00:48:52.520 --> 00:48:56.260 with a vertical off to the right for monitoring things like maybe documents. 00:48:57.040 --> 00:49:01.820 Most I've ever had, though, was eight screens, and that was just out of screwing around. 00:49:02.060 --> 00:49:05.200 We just got married, and I remember my wife walking past the room and noticed 00:49:05.200 --> 00:49:07.360 me surrounded by monitors like a crazy person. 00:49:08.180 --> 00:49:09.600 She just shook her head and walked away. 00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:14.420 Yeah. Yeah, I think I get that look whenever I use the VR headset, 00:49:14.560 --> 00:49:16.320 but I don't know for sure because I can't see. 00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:20.160 But I assume I'm getting that look. It's kind of awkward. 00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:24.800 I had a landlord I just moved in. This was in a past relationship, 00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:26.380 and she had a lot of monitors too. 00:49:26.420 --> 00:49:29.800 So we probably had like six or seven monitors between us when we'd set up both 00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:31.220 of our desks, and the landlord was just like. 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:36.660 What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we're day traders. No. Thank you, 00:49:36.720 --> 00:49:37.640 Mayhem. Good to hear from you. 00:49:38.620 --> 00:49:41.860 Outdoor Geek comes in with 10,000 sets. 00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:50.520 Chris, in response to your AM LAN ping woes, I wonder if maybe your router's 00:49:50.520 --> 00:49:52.200 power is dirty for some reason. 00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:55.740 Like, is there a new large load nearby? EV chargers? 00:49:56.240 --> 00:50:01.480 Although, if other devices on your LAN are working okay, then the issue is probably something else. 00:50:01.620 --> 00:50:04.380 But regardless, I hope the fix is quick and cheap. 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:08.300 I can't imagine it would be PJ or Brent's wiring. Can't imagine it'd be that. 00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:12.520 Right? No, that's impossible. So I do have new neighbors. 00:50:13.020 --> 00:50:15.960 We do share that wall where the router and switch are plugged in. 00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:19.980 I love that theory. I don't think it affects my other devices though. 00:50:21.300 --> 00:50:23.420 I thought we burned it all down and built it up again. 00:50:24.180 --> 00:50:26.380 All right. All right. I like this. 00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:27.600 Token ring this time. 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:36.040 Well, Bronze Wing sent in three booths for a total of 6,666 Satoshis. 00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:41.980 Number one here RIP Coder Radio. 00:50:43.620 --> 00:50:48.700 Aww yeah we do have a temporary not a replacement but some content out there 00:50:48.700 --> 00:50:52.640 called The Launch New Show and we got about three new episodes out right now 00:50:52.640 --> 00:50:56.960 weeklylaunch.rocks if you want to check it out The Coder Show continues under 00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.040 Mike's stewardship but it is not a JV production anymore, 00:51:01.056 --> 00:51:06.196 Bronzo Wing's also switching to Fountain. They did try AlbiHub for a bit, but they've had issues. 00:51:06.376 --> 00:51:09.956 I think one of the things people run into with AlbiHub is it does sometimes 00:51:09.956 --> 00:51:11.616 cost money to open channels. 00:51:11.776 --> 00:51:16.416 So if you're not using it, this is my commentary, if you're not using AlbiHub 00:51:16.416 --> 00:51:20.876 for anything other than boosting the shows, something like Fountain or Breeze is a much simpler setup. 00:51:21.036 --> 00:51:25.036 So that's what they switched to, but now they want CarPlay to work like other 00:51:25.036 --> 00:51:26.996 apps where you don't have to open it on your phone first. 00:51:27.556 --> 00:51:30.356 Well, here's a little insider scoop. I don't have all the details I can share 00:51:30.356 --> 00:51:35.076 with you, but CarPlay and Android Auto are about to get major attention in Fountain. 00:51:35.956 --> 00:51:40.656 And I think you're going to see much, much better CarPlay implementation and 00:51:40.656 --> 00:51:43.296 Android Auto implementation probably in the next couple of months. 00:51:43.776 --> 00:51:47.136 And also, yes, Graphene OS does have Android Auto. It's one of the apps you 00:51:47.136 --> 00:51:50.456 can install. It is sandboxed, and it seems to work great. 00:51:51.216 --> 00:51:56.156 I've had it crash on me once or twice, maybe ever. So that's pretty good, right? 00:51:56.496 --> 00:51:56.716 Yeah. 00:51:56.876 --> 00:51:57.356 That's pretty good. 00:51:57.356 --> 00:52:02.076 I will say, just for the AlbiHub curious out there, one of the nuances here 00:52:02.076 --> 00:52:06.516 is that AlbiHub is not necessarily optimized out of the box for boosting as your primary use case. 00:52:06.636 --> 00:52:07.296 Yeah, right, right. 00:52:07.516 --> 00:52:11.036 If you get what they call a liquidity service provider, an LSP, 00:52:11.576 --> 00:52:12.656 that's kind of optimized like 00:52:12.656 --> 00:52:15.476 if you were a merchant wanting to receive payments from your customers. 00:52:15.696 --> 00:52:19.296 And so you pay them and they open a channel for you. But most of them say like, 00:52:19.396 --> 00:52:22.016 well, if you don't use it enough after a month, we're probably going to close it. 00:52:22.696 --> 00:52:25.816 The alternative is if you have money you're willing to commit, 00:52:26.016 --> 00:52:29.356 because it takes committing some liquidity to a channel, you can also open your 00:52:29.356 --> 00:52:33.016 own channel to one of our nodes or a big node out there. 00:52:33.136 --> 00:52:37.236 So there are some options, but all of that takes the desire to want to run this infrastructure. 00:52:37.476 --> 00:52:40.236 So fountain and breeze are way better if you just want to send an occasional. 00:52:40.396 --> 00:52:44.376 And sometimes there's, you know, there's the Bitcoin questions chat room and 00:52:44.376 --> 00:52:48.236 the Bitcoin main chat. And you can sometimes find people in there that are exchanging nodes, too. 00:52:48.616 --> 00:52:52.996 And actually, Hybrid started a boost support room. I'll get a link to that, 00:52:53.036 --> 00:52:54.576 and that's another spot you can ask for help. 00:52:54.656 --> 00:52:55.356 Well, there you go. 00:52:56.356 --> 00:53:00.416 Turd Ferguson boosts in with 9,333 sats. 00:53:03.124 --> 00:53:08.264 Aw, here's to a great trip, boys. Buy a beer on me. Done. 00:53:08.644 --> 00:53:11.844 Thank you, Turd. We'll get Brent a nice gluten-free beer on you. 00:53:12.124 --> 00:53:15.524 If we find gluten-free beer, that would make me happy. Cider will do. 00:53:15.964 --> 00:53:19.224 No, it's going to be in Cal. Okay, all right. I'll join you in a cider. 00:53:19.504 --> 00:53:26.344 Well, Spectra sent in 5,000 sets. On the topic of owning your books versus leasing 00:53:26.344 --> 00:53:29.864 them, I think I learned of it on Linux Unplugged or self-hosted, 00:53:29.864 --> 00:53:34.444 but someone boosted in about Libro.fm, and gotta say, it's great. 00:53:34.944 --> 00:53:41.104 DRM-free downloads. If anyone is interested, my referral link is linked in the show notes. 00:53:42.124 --> 00:53:42.804 Haha, nice. 00:53:43.024 --> 00:53:49.024 Also, since I don't stream sets, any suggestion on how to set up a recurring payment with AlbiHub? 00:53:49.204 --> 00:53:52.504 I see a Zap Planner, but that doesn't seem to support splits, 00:53:52.504 --> 00:53:54.164 so suggestions are welcome. 00:53:54.764 --> 00:53:56.244 I gotta look into that. 00:53:56.364 --> 00:53:57.244 Yeah, good question. 00:53:57.244 --> 00:54:01.304 There has been other options in the past. Zap Planner, it doesn't seem like it. 00:54:01.804 --> 00:54:03.464 Maybe in conjunction with something else. 00:54:04.204 --> 00:54:10.684 We will have to investigate. Thank you for the boost. The Doodabide is here with 10,000 sats. 00:54:13.624 --> 00:54:19.224 Peace, NixOS and Justice? No, rock and roll, NixOS and Justice. 00:54:19.524 --> 00:54:21.844 Right? Is that how you read that? It's emoticons. 00:54:22.884 --> 00:54:26.524 I get it. It's rock, Nix, and scale. 00:54:26.524 --> 00:54:30.904 Oh, scale. Of course. Ah, well done. Well done. 00:54:32.044 --> 00:54:35.384 Well done. Thank you, everybody, of course. We really appreciate everybody who 00:54:35.384 --> 00:54:37.984 boosts in above the 2,000 sat cutoff for time. 00:54:38.404 --> 00:54:42.484 And then, of course, a big tip of the hat and shout out to our sat streamers. 00:54:42.564 --> 00:54:44.724 37 of you just streamed those sats as you listened. 00:54:45.044 --> 00:54:51.004 You did a heavy lift this week. You guys stacked us 90,126 sats, which is pretty great. 00:54:51.084 --> 00:54:52.424 That's over half. Wow. 00:54:52.704 --> 00:54:55.744 Not bad, right? And then you combine that with our boosters. 00:54:55.744 --> 00:54:57.304 It wasn't a particularly strong episode. 00:54:57.584 --> 00:55:03.724 I think maybe the Rust and Colonel stuff didn't go over super well is kind of 00:55:03.724 --> 00:55:05.464 my takeaway, but that's totally fine. That's on us. 00:55:05.804 --> 00:55:08.004 But we really appreciate everybody who did step up. Collectively, 00:55:08.024 --> 00:55:13.024 we all stacked 144,427 sats for this episode. 00:55:15.464 --> 00:55:19.664 We really appreciate you. And don't stop at one bit. If you'd like to boost 00:55:19.664 --> 00:55:22.604 the show, like I said earlier, the easiest way is probably with Fountain FM. 00:55:23.404 --> 00:55:26.104 Or if you just don't want to hassle with accounts or anything like that or even 00:55:26.104 --> 00:55:31.724 switch podcast apps, Breeze Mobile, B-R-E-E-Z, Breeze Mobile, makes it really easy. 00:55:31.904 --> 00:55:34.324 Thank you everybody who supports this Value for Value production. 00:55:42.497 --> 00:55:45.677 We distribute this episode for free, and our members make it possible. 00:55:45.937 --> 00:55:46.977 Thank you to our members. 00:55:47.477 --> 00:55:51.837 You also get a fantastic bootleg special only for you next week. 00:55:52.717 --> 00:55:56.697 Thank you, everybody, who supports this production. That is our supporters for episode 604. 00:56:02.317 --> 00:56:03.977 If you pick music this good. 00:56:04.137 --> 00:56:09.417 I know. We just listen to the music. We do have a really fantastic pick. 00:56:09.557 --> 00:56:12.177 You should see if you can get this working while we talk about it. Okay? 00:56:12.497 --> 00:56:17.517 So Steve Ovens, longtime listener of the show and co-host of the Ask Noah program, 00:56:17.757 --> 00:56:21.657 has worked on making a dream of mine reality. 00:56:21.877 --> 00:56:25.857 It's called Open Audible to Audio Bookshelf. 00:56:26.157 --> 00:56:30.657 Now, you guys know I've talked about how I purchase books on Audible and then 00:56:30.657 --> 00:56:34.837 I extract them off of Audible and then I manually, like a caveman, 00:56:35.657 --> 00:56:38.217 load them over the network onto my audio bookshelf server. 00:56:38.777 --> 00:56:43.377 Well, what Steve has created here is a script that automates the process of 00:56:43.377 --> 00:56:46.637 moving audiobook files from the open Audible app, or Libation, 00:56:46.737 --> 00:56:51.197 your choice, to an organized folder structure, and then updates Audiobookshelf 00:56:51.197 --> 00:56:52.917 accordingly. I think it pings the API. 00:56:53.237 --> 00:56:56.757 Yeah, he says here, it handles file organization, metadata mapping, 00:56:56.777 --> 00:56:59.217 and interaction with the Audiobookshelf API. 00:56:59.577 --> 00:57:02.777 And, of course, it is GPL3. 00:57:04.037 --> 00:57:09.137 Yeah i saw you uh tag this for the show and immediately that just seemed brilliant. 00:57:09.137 --> 00:57:13.617 This is something that the people have needed it's uh you need python he's got 00:57:13.617 --> 00:57:16.317 he's got the prerequisites just requests. 00:57:16.317 --> 00:57:17.957 And py yaml for dependencies though. 00:57:17.957 --> 00:57:21.357 Totally reasonable i also asked him if he's open to the community contributing 00:57:21.357 --> 00:57:26.137 ideas or fixes or updates and he said he totes is he would welcome uh the feedback 00:57:26.137 --> 00:57:30.397 from the audience out there this is such a great idea right like you could see 00:57:30.397 --> 00:57:34.517 yourself just pulling down your books from time to time this kicks in moves them up to the uh 00:57:34.937 --> 00:57:39.717 to the bookshelf server just so ah you know because the problem is now it's 00:57:39.717 --> 00:57:42.637 like i've actually even resisted buying books and like ah then i have to go 00:57:42.637 --> 00:57:47.177 fire up libation copy and it's not like it's a huge deal but libations ui is 00:57:47.177 --> 00:57:49.817 weird it's just enough friction so. 00:57:49.817 --> 00:57:51.197 What are you going to do with all your time chris. 00:57:51.197 --> 00:57:55.457 I'm going to listen to more audiobooks clearly you know now, 00:57:56.117 --> 00:58:01.117 nothing holds me back it's pretty cool so it's uh open audible to audio bookshelf 00:58:01.117 --> 00:58:07.657 and uh we have a link in the show notes gpl3 made by mr steve ovens fantastic 00:58:07.657 --> 00:58:14.217 work sir you know what you get a you get a nimoy for that that's so good here you go right here steve, 00:58:15.807 --> 00:58:17.707 That's some serious value for value right there. 00:58:17.887 --> 00:58:22.587 Well, I'm not quite there, but I'm pretty sure a flake can come pretty quick if we want one. 00:58:22.947 --> 00:58:24.967 You think we could have it before the end of the member stream? 00:58:25.127 --> 00:58:27.947 I mean, that's a big task. We've got other work to do. But, I mean, 00:58:28.007 --> 00:58:29.927 come on. I've got to get this going. I need a flake. 00:58:31.367 --> 00:58:34.467 All right. That's it. Remember, we have the eBPF special for you next week. 00:58:34.467 --> 00:58:36.627 We'd like to hear what you think of that. 00:58:36.647 --> 00:58:39.747 And if you'd like to buy a beer at the meetup on Saturday, even if you can't 00:58:39.747 --> 00:58:43.707 make it, boost the show and just say it's for the beer budget. 00:58:43.707 --> 00:58:45.867 And we'll allocate it as such. 00:58:46.167 --> 00:58:48.647 Yeah, and then maybe we cheers to the folks that do that at the table. 00:58:48.747 --> 00:58:51.907 I like that idea. Yeah, we'll pull up the report on the laptop and we'll give 00:58:51.907 --> 00:58:53.027 you a shout-out there at the meetup. 00:58:53.487 --> 00:58:56.727 Now, we won't have the live stream. We do have a bootleg for our members, 00:58:56.767 --> 00:58:58.827 but we won't have a live stream since we're going to be on location. 00:58:58.847 --> 00:59:01.407 We've decided to just sort of focus on getting the content for you, 00:59:01.427 --> 00:59:05.207 and then we're going to bring you back the best stuff when we get back from all of it. 00:59:05.347 --> 00:59:10.127 So join us in two weeks on Sunday at 12 p.m. Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern. 00:59:14.207 --> 00:59:17.247 Maybe one day AI can generate a version that says, see, in two weeks. 00:59:17.667 --> 00:59:20.707 You know, because right now there's nothing I can do. 00:59:20.887 --> 00:59:21.807 Jeff could do it. 00:59:24.467 --> 00:59:29.527 Links to everything we talked about and more, linuxunplugged.com slash 604. 00:59:30.127 --> 00:59:32.427 Also, do remember we won't be live next week. 00:59:32.507 --> 00:59:36.507 Yeah. So, yeah. But you can find Mumble info. So when you do want to participate, 00:59:36.767 --> 00:59:37.907 contact page over there, our 00:59:37.907 --> 00:59:41.487 matrix info, because the matrix is always going. We do have a scale chat. 00:59:42.007 --> 00:59:44.747 And so we'll be poking in and out of there during the event. 00:59:44.887 --> 00:59:46.667 You can always find us in Scale Chat if you want to know where we're at. 00:59:47.047 --> 00:59:47.907 I think that's it, though. 00:59:48.467 --> 00:59:50.947 Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode, and we'll see you right 00:59:50.947 --> 00:59:53.847 back here next Tuesday, as in Sunday. 01:00:32.327 --> 01:00:34.367 Okay, real talk. Have any of us actually packed yet? 01:00:35.127 --> 01:00:35.447 No. 01:00:36.327 --> 01:00:37.547 I've been thinking about it. 01:00:37.627 --> 01:00:38.387 Oh, I've been thinking about it. 01:00:38.387 --> 01:00:41.247 I've got like a semi-sorted list in my head. 01:00:41.767 --> 01:00:44.747 Yeah, I don't. I haven't packed clothes or gear yet. 01:00:44.907 --> 01:00:48.487 I mean, I kind of have a, I kind of know, but I'll tell you the truth. 01:00:48.607 --> 01:00:51.667 We have not done a live event since Linux Fest Northwest last year. 01:00:51.747 --> 01:00:57.067 And so like everything's in the, we got to pack up the booth in 25 minutes and 01:00:57.067 --> 01:00:58.647 put it in this huge crate box. 01:00:58.887 --> 01:01:02.247 And you told me it was safe to store that info on tape and that you'd get the 01:01:02.247 --> 01:01:04.767 archives ready so we could load it back into our brains, you know, 01:01:04.847 --> 01:01:06.767 a couple of weeks ago, but that hasn't happened yet. 01:01:06.927 --> 01:01:08.867 Yeah. Turns out it wasn't a good plan.
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