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Nix's Magic Cookbook

Mar 16, 2025
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We have stories to share, guests joining us, insights from our week at Planet Nix, and Brent's big bombshell.

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Transcript

WEBVTT 00:00:14.500 --> 00:00:19.220 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:21.320 And my name is Brent. 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:26.960 Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show today, we just got back from Planet 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.660 Nix, and boy, do we have stories to share, guests joining us, 00:00:30.720 --> 00:00:33.580 and insights from our week at Planet Nix. 00:00:33.720 --> 00:00:37.620 Then we'll round out the show with some great boosts, some picks, and a lot more. 00:00:37.720 --> 00:00:42.160 So before we get into all that shenanigans, I want to say time-appropriate greetings to our virtual... 00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:42.580 My name is Wes. 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:43.780 Hello, Mumble Room. 00:00:44.900 --> 00:00:47.080 Hey, Chris. Hey, Wes, and hello, Brent. 00:00:47.620 --> 00:00:52.140 Nice to have you there. JupyterBroadcasting.com slash mumble if you want to 00:00:52.140 --> 00:00:54.100 get in on that action when we're live on Sundays. 00:00:54.720 --> 00:00:59.360 And a big good morning to our friends at TailScale. TailScale.com slash unplugged. 00:00:59.440 --> 00:01:00.520 That's where you want to go. 00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:05.200 TailScale.com slash unplugged to support the show and try it for free on 100 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:09.260 devices, three accounts, no credit card required, not a limited time thing. 00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:12.400 I mean, you must be on the free plan, Wes, right? Indeed. 00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:15.900 Yeah, it's great. And then what we did is we all started on the free plan, 00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:19.500 and we love it because you get a flat mesh network that is protected by. 00:01:20.460 --> 00:01:24.280 And it's very quick to set up and get going. I mean, if you've got five minutes, 00:01:24.340 --> 00:01:25.980 you can probably get it running on three machines. 00:01:28.806 --> 00:01:33.766 I'm not kidding, was the easiest thing to get running on FreeBSD of all the things I tried. 00:01:33.926 --> 00:01:37.646 And it's true for Nix, too. It's like a one-liner in Nix, and you've got Tailscale working. 00:01:37.986 --> 00:01:41.186 So we all love it for our personal home labs and our networks. 00:01:41.346 --> 00:01:43.866 And then we started using it here at Jupyter Broadcasting. 00:01:44.046 --> 00:01:46.966 And I think that's true for a lot of our listeners out there because it is an 00:01:46.966 --> 00:01:48.166 enterprise-grade system. 00:01:48.366 --> 00:01:51.466 I mean, there are just tons of companies out there, ones you've heard of, 00:01:51.586 --> 00:01:53.826 that are using Tailscale for their back-end infrastructure. 00:01:53.826 --> 00:01:58.266 And you can bridge what would be otherwise very complex networks, 00:01:58.406 --> 00:02:02.346 like multiple providers, multiple data centers, VPSs, on-premises, 00:02:02.686 --> 00:02:06.506 mobile devices. You can bridge all of that into one flat mesh network. 00:02:07.326 --> 00:02:11.986 That's why companies like Duolingo and Hugging Face and Instacart love it. 00:02:12.206 --> 00:02:13.246 So try it out for yourself. 00:02:13.706 --> 00:02:18.946 Get it for 100 devices for free when you go to tailscale.com slash unplugged. 00:02:19.366 --> 00:02:23.666 Well, we're back in town. Last week was our eBPF special. while we were away, 00:02:23.986 --> 00:02:27.326 hard at work, covering and capturing all of Planet Nix. 00:02:27.826 --> 00:02:31.366 And I felt like we kind of found a pretty good groove for our Planet Nix and 00:02:31.366 --> 00:02:34.666 scale coverage, don't you think? I think we, you know, we didn't overdo it. 00:02:35.626 --> 00:02:38.526 There was a lot to take care of. Yeah. I think we went to more talk. 00:02:43.266 --> 00:02:48.106 Yeah. Maybe put together. Did you enjoy the trip? Okay. I did, yeah. It was, you know. 00:03:04.266 --> 00:03:05.226 Yeah, that was great. 00:03:13.846 --> 00:03:14.206 True. 00:03:15.846 --> 00:03:17.206 Yeah, a million years ago. 00:03:17.346 --> 00:03:19.286 Or wants to know more. Yeah, that's true. 00:03:25.798 --> 00:03:26.958 Yeah, you heard from the man himself. 00:03:27.218 --> 00:03:27.778 Brandon, Greg. 00:03:28.638 --> 00:03:30.258 Observability, performance, tracing, you know what? 00:03:30.278 --> 00:03:31.118 I was reflecting on the trip. 00:03:31.498 --> 00:03:35.418 There were some tough moments for sure. I don't think I'd rather do it with anybody else. 00:03:36.638 --> 00:03:39.018 We as a unit have really got this work. 00:03:39.018 --> 00:03:40.418 How hard drives don't like it when you yell at them. 00:03:40.418 --> 00:03:41.518 And a big shout out to my wife. 00:03:41.638 --> 00:03:44.198 Adia, who does a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to the bookings, 00:03:44.738 --> 00:03:46.058 figuring out where we can stay. 00:03:46.578 --> 00:03:49.198 And all the logistics there. Brandon, you're a big world traveler. 00:03:49.338 --> 00:03:52.538 I think we've got a good, tight little group now for covering these things. 00:03:52.778 --> 00:03:54.758 Yeah, I think we have a pretty good routine going. 00:03:54.758 --> 00:03:58.078 And we got, you know, we do an Airbnb and I'll hang out and that gives us a 00:03:58.078 --> 00:04:03.378 little bit of downtime together between all of the extra coverage that we do during the day. 00:04:04.218 --> 00:04:09.138 And we like, we didn't even have to this time talk about who was going to do what. 00:04:09.278 --> 00:04:13.878 We just kind of know our place and our positions and who's going to handle what part. 00:04:14.098 --> 00:04:17.978 And like a huge thanks to listener Jeff or producer Jeff, I should say, 00:04:18.118 --> 00:04:22.198 who just helped us throughout the entire process. So thank you, Jeff. 00:04:22.598 --> 00:04:23.038 Absolutely. 00:04:23.278 --> 00:04:24.538 Thank you guys. Always fun. 00:04:24.758 --> 00:04:30.438 And it was nice to be able to have Jeff there with us because he's always down to help in whatever way. 00:04:30.438 --> 00:04:32.198 It does do some networking stuff still to this day. 00:04:32.418 --> 00:04:36.078 I was really glad that we had kind of figured, we kind of settled into a routine 00:04:36.078 --> 00:04:38.838 because it meant every night we got the clips processed and. 00:04:38.838 --> 00:04:40.098 You know, labelled and collected. 00:04:40.818 --> 00:04:46.678 So we're finally at that point now where we have pretty much everything sorted by the time we get home. 00:04:47.098 --> 00:04:49.618 And then there's just a little bit of, you know, final polish to put on things. 00:04:51.458 --> 00:04:54.958 And, you know, before too long, in the same decade, it made its way over to 00:04:54.958 --> 00:04:56.938 Linux in the form of TCP DOM. 00:04:57.058 --> 00:04:59.238 And already you're seeing this thing, right, where you can kind of use user 00:04:59.238 --> 00:05:03.158 space to help better observe what's going on in your system. 00:05:03.158 --> 00:05:07.138 But they also made it possible for us to end up in Pasadena and bring you all the information. 00:05:07.138 --> 00:05:12.038 And they didn't ask us to cover it in any particular way. They just facilitated us to get down there. 00:05:12.558 --> 00:05:16.338 And they, you know, worked with us whenever we had questions or wanted to know 00:05:16.338 --> 00:05:20.478 who was who. And I think they're really going to be something special going down the road. 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:23.400 What you have, right, is this complexity of Nix. 00:05:23.400 --> 00:05:26.460 Yeah, and that's how the implementation works. And Flox is all about simplifying it for developers. 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:28.220 And so you get reproducible. 00:05:28.340 --> 00:05:30.320 You get portable dev environments that are powered by Nix. 00:05:30.320 --> 00:05:32.740 You don't have to have the learning curve. 00:05:32.740 --> 00:05:36.280 The point is it's like a very limited, restricted bytecode that can only do 00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:37.540 certain things relevant to. 00:05:37.580 --> 00:05:39.320 At first, filtering packets. 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.700 And that lets you make sure that the company is crazy, you can't go into infinite 00:05:42.700 --> 00:05:45.560 loops, all kinds of other nice things. You have to optimize it. 00:05:46.020 --> 00:05:49.200 So Flox lets you manage and share environments effortlessly with people that 00:05:49.200 --> 00:05:50.820 already have an existing workflow. 00:05:51.100 --> 00:05:54.380 Packet and anything else that you need to focus on building great software and 00:05:54.380 --> 00:05:57.420 then the machine executes and ultimately that's how you tell like do I accept 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:59.060 the packet or do I drop the packet, 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:05.340 but at first it was a you know a very limited I think I had like a two registers 00:06:05.340 --> 00:06:06.840 to use super limited thing, 00:06:07.960 --> 00:06:13.080 but eBPF extended BPF was introduced in Linux 3.18 and of course they got an 00:06:13.080 --> 00:06:16.360 eye on you know so BPF have been around for a while there have been various 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:17.360 developments so we're super grateful for. 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:18.080 Their support so. 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:19.520 Check them out at flux.dev. 00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:21.780 See how they're bringing the magic I think of NICs to everybody. 00:06:21.980 --> 00:06:25.300 A big thank you to everyone. At Flox, we're making it possible for this episode. 00:06:25.300 --> 00:06:29.560 It had some of those register limitations. So they upgraded to 64-bit registers, 00:06:29.780 --> 00:06:30.700 added more instructions. 00:06:31.020 --> 00:06:33.520 Now, Flox kept a pretty serious kernel. 00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:36.680 Which is a big part of it that lets you analyze the PDF programs to make sure 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:39.840 they're safe. No infinite loops. They don't do invalid memory. We're fine with that. 00:06:40.020 --> 00:06:41.460 We're there to work, too. Gosh darn it. 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:45.240 Right. It's because it's like you're loading something from userspace into the 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:46.860 kernel. That's a big security concern. 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:47.760 It is about 6 a.m. 00:06:47.760 --> 00:06:48.800 So you want to make sure that you have that. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:49.800 And it's Thursday. 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:52.300 And Planet Nick starts at 9.15. 00:06:52.300 --> 00:06:57.880 A.m. But you've got to do the L.A. travel math and the getting your registration sorted. 00:06:58.952 --> 00:07:04.512 So really, we're probably out of here about 8.30. So I'm going to go take my really awkward shower. 00:07:04.512 --> 00:07:07.632 So that was kind of like the raw stuff. And then I'll be fresh and ready for 00:07:07.632 --> 00:07:08.632 all the people. How exciting. 00:07:09.132 --> 00:07:13.472 Oh my gosh. So I think I'm the biggest Airbnb critic on the planet. 00:07:13.672 --> 00:07:15.732 Because I've never really stayed at an Airbnb I've liked. 00:07:16.252 --> 00:07:18.752 And it's always in part because of the shower situation. 00:07:18.892 --> 00:07:23.112 Their products have a bunch of EVPF stuff for Kubernetes offerings. 00:07:23.492 --> 00:07:26.752 And this one was no exception. Plus, we got better compilers out in the public hall. 00:07:26.752 --> 00:07:31.552 Or compile once run everywhere so like compilers have better support to be able 00:07:31.552 --> 00:07:35.672 to make you can compile your BPF program and not have to worry about as much 00:07:35.672 --> 00:07:38.552 necessarily depending on what you're doing with it about how compatible it will 00:07:38.552 --> 00:07:41.592 be with the kernel where you compiled it versus where you're running it, 00:07:48.552 --> 00:07:48.992 right, 00:07:51.132 --> 00:07:56.492 this has been so successful that's not why we were there newer versions of D-Trace on Linux We. 00:07:56.492 --> 00:07:58.152 Got the bodies cleaned and the stank off of us. 00:07:58.252 --> 00:08:02.112 They're basically just some extra user space stuff that uses EBPF and other 00:08:02.112 --> 00:08:03.252 kernel primitives under the hood. 00:08:03.312 --> 00:08:06.952 It's just about time for the kickoff of Planet Nix. We've got our seats, 00:08:07.052 --> 00:08:12.252 and Brent brought a gigantic backpack. How much food is in there versus gear? 00:08:12.272 --> 00:08:16.072 One important thing with the extended product is they were also able to make 00:08:16.072 --> 00:08:19.072 the instruction set be more sympathetic to modern hardware. 00:08:19.072 --> 00:08:20.132 Wait, you didn't bring us food up. 00:08:20.132 --> 00:08:22.632 And they implemented just-in-time compilation as well. 00:08:22.672 --> 00:08:25.592 Now, Wes, do you have something to take notes with over there? 00:08:25.592 --> 00:08:27.292 Really fast. I have my phone. 00:08:27.292 --> 00:08:27.292 And I have log-seek. I have my phone. 00:08:27.532 --> 00:08:32.172 And I have log-seek. All right, and I've got the audio. I'll take the audio 00:08:32.172 --> 00:08:33.872 notes, West takes the text notes. 00:08:34.032 --> 00:08:34.712 And Brent will do the snack. 00:08:34.712 --> 00:08:35.932 If you do that, there's no guarantees. 00:08:36.172 --> 00:08:37.472 And it works pretty well. That's kind of on the tin. 00:08:37.852 --> 00:08:41.412 But there is some stable interfaces that you can use, which is nice. 00:08:42.458 --> 00:08:46.658 So, the other important point to know is there's kind of various things it can do. 00:08:47.378 --> 00:08:51.838 There's XDP, which is Express Data Path, which intercepts packets, 00:08:52.058 --> 00:08:54.678 basically, like the earliest point that you can. 00:08:55.278 --> 00:08:59.578 You have limitations on what you can do, but it can be super level and performing. 00:08:59.678 --> 00:09:03.058 And so you can see this sometimes maybe on the DDoS attacks where. 00:09:03.058 --> 00:09:05.538 We're getting flood-up traffic that you have. 00:09:05.918 --> 00:09:09.358 Maybe you can identify various ways that you can program in here. 00:09:09.358 --> 00:09:11.258 You show up just at the end of the talk, you can catch them in the room. 00:09:11.258 --> 00:09:13.678 Hey, could you step outside for a few minutes and do a chat with us? 00:09:13.738 --> 00:09:16.618 That kind of thing. So we're both trying to take in as much information. 00:09:16.618 --> 00:09:20.258 Yeah, that's the idea. It doesn't do as much of the very general and powerful, 00:09:20.278 --> 00:09:23.218 but, you know, full-featured Linux kernel networking. 00:09:23.218 --> 00:09:24.478 There was a moment where Ron from 00:09:24.478 --> 00:09:27.978 Floss talked about why Planet Nix and thought I'd share that with you. 00:09:28.298 --> 00:09:31.778 A journey into Planet Nix. So this is a little sneak peek. I don't know if we 00:09:31.778 --> 00:09:32.258 have any magic to gather fans out here. 00:09:32.258 --> 00:09:33.958 Yeah, one way to say it's limited context, but maximum. 00:09:33.958 --> 00:09:37.138 I'm kind of a geek on it. We're going to do something. You'll see. 00:09:37.258 --> 00:09:39.018 Okay, so then you can also do various types of K-prones. 00:09:39.018 --> 00:09:40.198 But otherwise, Planet Nix. 00:09:40.198 --> 00:09:41.738 So Nix, obviously, it's Nix. 00:09:41.898 --> 00:09:45.398 The other fact is that for years we've been trying to reinstate Pluto as a planet. 00:09:45.398 --> 00:09:46.798 It hasn't been really successful. 00:09:46.798 --> 00:09:48.778 You can hook almost any kernel function. 00:09:48.798 --> 00:09:49.978 It's called Nix, right? 00:09:50.038 --> 00:09:52.118 That's why it'll go call Nix Nix. 00:09:52.118 --> 00:09:54.238 You can ask him later about that. There's no clear definition of what you're going to get. 00:09:54.238 --> 00:09:56.818 You have to go look at the function you're hooking into. It's all going to be 00:09:56.818 --> 00:09:59.218 dependent on that. You've got no kernel internals. 00:09:59.218 --> 00:10:03.058 The thing is, we're starting a mission to try and reinstate Pluto as a planet. But a lot of them. 00:10:03.178 --> 00:10:03.198 Yeah. 00:10:03.198 --> 00:10:06.218 And then eventually have a real moon for a real planet called Nix. 00:10:06.818 --> 00:10:08.338 That's why we call it Planet Nix. 00:10:08.438 --> 00:10:09.118 I can get behind that. 00:10:09.668 --> 00:10:10.568 I think Pluto deserves it. 00:10:10.588 --> 00:10:12.428 So that's where a lot of some of the power comes from, right? 00:10:12.748 --> 00:10:16.288 But that may or may not be stable. There's no guarantee about it being stable across Coral versions. 00:10:16.288 --> 00:10:17.168 It's one of our biggest risks. 00:10:17.188 --> 00:10:20.068 It changes any time. People can update the signatures. That's one of the things 00:10:20.068 --> 00:10:22.208 that's been happening in the Rust discussion. 00:10:22.348 --> 00:10:22.708 It's still a planet. 00:10:23.168 --> 00:10:25.828 The kernel, many developers expect to be able to make a change like that. 00:10:25.828 --> 00:10:26.308 Maybe that's where we can find it. 00:10:26.308 --> 00:10:27.248 Because they have one big code 00:10:27.248 --> 00:10:30.248 base, they can update it everywhere and be able to do it in a factory. 00:10:30.248 --> 00:10:31.308 There was also an analogy made that I thought was pretty good. 00:10:31.428 --> 00:10:37.008 Ron calls Nix kind of like his mom's veggie gulag. And this is how he explains Nix to his family. 00:10:37.008 --> 00:10:40.828 The way I like to think about NICS to folks that are non-NICS initiated or maybe 00:10:40.828 --> 00:10:43.268 not super technical is like veggie goulash. 00:10:43.468 --> 00:10:49.208 So I have very mixed background in my heritage. So I had a great grandmother 00:10:49.208 --> 00:10:52.488 from Poland, and she would make this amazing veggie goulash. 00:10:53.208 --> 00:10:55.728 She sadly passed away a long time ago. 00:10:55.888 --> 00:10:57.468 But the recipe lived on. 00:10:57.868 --> 00:11:03.008 But everybody has these kinds of recipes that they kind of pass from person to person in the family. 00:11:03.808 --> 00:11:05.028 It's ink on paper. 00:11:05.028 --> 00:11:09.608 It tells you what ingredients you need it tells you how to put it in maybe it 00:11:09.608 --> 00:11:13.148 tells you Fahrenheit or Celsius and you do the conversion yourself and at the 00:11:13.148 --> 00:11:17.768 end of the day it never comes off as the same thing because recipes are not reproducible. 00:11:19.148 --> 00:11:22.788 Here's a big but and how I like to think about Nick's I like to say hey mom, 00:11:23.248 --> 00:11:25.068 imagine you had a magic cookbook, 00:11:25.608 --> 00:11:29.588 imagine that magic cookbook was written by our great grandmother and again it 00:11:29.588 --> 00:11:34.708 had all those recipes but when she wrote down two tomatoes one zucchini you 00:11:34.708 --> 00:11:40.268 know little paprika or whatever it is that magic cookbook actually materialized, 00:11:40.868 --> 00:11:46.148 that exact tomato that was grown in the exact soil with the exact acidity that 00:11:46.148 --> 00:11:50.428 she had in her backyard or at the farmer's market and that showed up in your 00:11:50.428 --> 00:11:53.908 kitchen when you were starting to cook that veggie goulash what. 00:11:53.908 --> 00:11:54.088 Do you think, 00:12:37.671 --> 00:12:41.771 And I think one of the insights and takeaways I had from Planet Nix this year 00:12:41.771 --> 00:12:48.071 was what you just described is becoming more and more something that the software 00:12:48.071 --> 00:12:50.771 industry is expected to provide to the enterprise. 00:12:50.771 --> 00:12:53.531 The enterprise wants to know exactly what's in this. 00:12:53.631 --> 00:12:56.511 They want to know if it complies with certain requirements. 00:12:57.031 --> 00:13:00.491 And they want to be able to reproduce it and move it around every single time. 00:13:00.551 --> 00:13:04.191 These tools, make sure you check all the regular system monitoring tools first, 00:13:04.211 --> 00:13:09.851 because we'll see as a theme, like, you know, your H-tops and B-tops and all kinds of things. 00:13:10.331 --> 00:13:12.791 Kind of get a broad look, and you can see some specifics. 00:13:13.591 --> 00:13:18.231 Whereas you can make broad... And this is where Ron's chat with Kelsey Hightower came in. 00:13:18.311 --> 00:13:20.311 Kelsey was on the show just a couple of weeks ago. 00:13:20.311 --> 00:13:22.491 Kind of teasing what he talked about. Like one thing like disk latency or something 00:13:22.491 --> 00:13:23.711 specific to the file system. 00:13:23.771 --> 00:13:27.111 And he went in further detail about his discovery when he finally had a little 00:13:27.111 --> 00:13:28.931 bit of time to read the Nix white paper. 00:13:29.111 --> 00:13:33.211 Kind of what you think about Nix and maybe having kind of a frank conversation about it. 00:13:34.409 --> 00:13:38.509 Yeah, I read the Knicks paper last year, and I was like, look at this, 00:13:38.689 --> 00:13:41.089 in my view, this buried treasure. 00:13:41.629 --> 00:13:46.229 And it feels like there was a fork in the road a couple of decades ago where 00:13:46.229 --> 00:13:48.109 this problem was definitely apparent. 00:13:48.929 --> 00:13:51.329 Back then, I was a big user of systems like Red Hat. 00:13:51.489 --> 00:13:53.449 I started my career on FreeBSD. 00:13:53.749 --> 00:13:57.809 And there was this situation of how do you get more than one thing on a system 00:13:57.809 --> 00:14:00.869 without them overriding each other or fighting each other? 00:14:00.869 --> 00:14:05.329 Then I spent the rest of my career putting one app per VM because no one solved 00:14:05.329 --> 00:14:09.749 the problem 10 years later that just came to think you did then we got tools 00:14:09.749 --> 00:14:13.369 like RVM in the Ruby community because your gem files would literally fight 00:14:13.369 --> 00:14:18.369 with each other and you taught them to behave I also worked on tools like Virtual 00:14:18.369 --> 00:14:19.649 N in the Python community, 00:14:20.229 --> 00:14:25.849 and then Docker came out and I think Docker leaned into the reality was that 00:14:25.849 --> 00:14:30.269 no one had solved this problem because every programming language also came 00:14:30.269 --> 00:14:34.409 with their own package manager and ways of doing things. 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:38.409 And then Golang came out and it was like, forget libc altogether. 00:14:39.449 --> 00:14:43.869 Build static binaries and we just skipped that entire step. And in many ways 00:14:43.869 --> 00:14:45.829 it felt like Docker had won. 00:14:46.049 --> 00:14:49.989 Not just because it figured out reproducible software. 00:14:50.689 --> 00:14:54.309 So you can filter out a business system, but I think it's especially useful 00:14:54.309 --> 00:14:56.729 on a system you think should be relatively quiet. 00:14:56.909 --> 00:15:01.089 It's non-deterministic. people do all kind of weird things because the focus 00:15:01.089 --> 00:15:04.189 went from operating systems to applications. 00:15:05.349 --> 00:15:09.809 And Docker became the perfect format for people to get that done and distribute it to each other. 00:15:10.329 --> 00:15:12.629 And so I read next paper after going through this whole journey. 00:15:12.689 --> 00:15:13.869 It's like, where were you? 00:15:14.669 --> 00:15:17.389 Two decades ago, when I was at that fork in the road. 00:15:17.549 --> 00:15:19.529 Maybe we would have went in a different way. 00:15:19.929 --> 00:15:21.769 And so a lot of my initial feedback has been. 00:15:22.869 --> 00:15:24.429 This ain't usable for that. 00:15:25.811 --> 00:15:30.531 When you show, it's like showing people Vim for the first time when all they know is Microsoft Word. 00:15:30.911 --> 00:15:31.191 Yeah. 00:15:31.671 --> 00:15:32.971 How do I get out of this thing? 00:15:33.051 --> 00:15:34.211 I do. So a few years ago. 00:15:34.311 --> 00:15:37.451 Why'd you turn off your computers? I was admin in the DPS box. 00:15:37.471 --> 00:15:38.811 I wasn't totally in charge of it. 00:15:38.871 --> 00:15:41.571 And I did that before, right? To get out of Vim, I had shame. 00:15:41.751 --> 00:15:45.031 I just turned the whole thing off. Turned my computer back on. 00:15:45.151 --> 00:15:46.171 I was like, I'm out of there. 00:15:46.431 --> 00:15:48.231 I noticed some of the statistics first. 00:15:48.431 --> 00:15:48.711 That felt sort of fair. 00:15:48.711 --> 00:15:49.411 The metrics were a little long. 00:15:49.431 --> 00:15:50.191 That felt like a fair analogy. 00:15:50.491 --> 00:15:53.371 And I went on and I started just kind of doing regular updates and poking around 00:15:53.371 --> 00:15:56.991 at the system. And I noticed that I wasn't able to actually update the data. 00:15:56.991 --> 00:16:02.251 Now, you got to your point specifically around the bomb or the bill of materials 00:16:02.251 --> 00:16:07.471 and how maybe Nix could improve software distribution even if we stuck with Docker. 00:16:07.971 --> 00:16:09.471 And so the hands-on approach is like. 00:16:09.471 --> 00:16:13.531 How could you make Docker better if you had something like Nix in the middle? 00:16:13.531 --> 00:16:15.071 So if you've never used Docker before. 00:16:15.571 --> 00:16:17.831 There's this Docker file. If you look at these Docker files. 00:16:17.951 --> 00:16:21.211 It's like a big-ass bash script, the way most people do things, right? 00:16:21.211 --> 00:16:26.371 So this was maybe closer to when I really started playing with these tools. 00:16:26.491 --> 00:16:28.371 Download all the NPM modules just in case I need one. 00:16:29.171 --> 00:16:30.591 And so they were already available. 00:16:31.131 --> 00:16:36.311 And then you shipped this four-terabyte thing to servers. You like a repeatable software. 00:16:37.211 --> 00:16:40.951 And then you spend half your time scanning, looking for vulnerabilities. 00:16:40.951 --> 00:16:42.551 And then that led me to look at some weird file paths. 00:16:42.551 --> 00:16:47.391 We're right back to where we were 20 years ago. And I also started, I did an exec snoop. 00:16:47.471 --> 00:16:52.311 And that showed similar file paths running on them. They just packaged it in 00:16:52.311 --> 00:16:53.391 another artifact this time. 00:16:53.611 --> 00:16:56.391 And so people have worked on slinging technologies where. 00:16:56.391 --> 00:16:59.391 You know, you try to start the app, look at the system calls. 00:16:59.531 --> 00:17:02.411 Run an S-Trace, and figure out exactly what it needs. 00:17:02.711 --> 00:17:06.891 You run it into production, and you find out you miss one. So we've been doing 00:17:06.891 --> 00:17:10.911 a lot of reverse engineering, and I was like, what if we were able to do this differently? 00:17:11.591 --> 00:17:13.351 So after the whole SolarWinds debacle. 00:17:13.791 --> 00:17:16.851 There has been a rising interest in secure software supply chain. 00:17:17.791 --> 00:17:21.171 And I think now people are open to a different approach. I think people are 00:17:21.171 --> 00:17:22.391 a little tired of the brute force. 00:17:22.791 --> 00:17:26.631 And so the premise of Nix is that we can be a little bit more exact. 00:17:26.931 --> 00:17:31.651 So instead of generating an SBOM after you built the application through reverse engineering. 00:17:31.871 --> 00:17:34.231 What if it could be way more explicit up front? 00:17:34.331 --> 00:17:35.651 So that's been appealing to 00:17:35.651 --> 00:17:38.891 me. So I've been looking at how do we take the current situation we're in. 00:17:38.951 --> 00:17:40.851 Especially the one that's baked in containers. 00:17:41.191 --> 00:17:44.691 And then can Nix add value to that scenario. 00:17:45.291 --> 00:17:46.671 That seems like a pretty realistic goal. 00:17:46.751 --> 00:17:49.871 Yeah, all kinds of stuff, file system-specific stuff. They've got things for, 00:17:49.971 --> 00:17:52.511 you know, looking at network connections, TCP connections. 00:17:52.671 --> 00:17:55.211 They've got stuff for monitoring databases. It's broad. 00:18:10.814 --> 00:18:11.894 Definitely useful, yeah. 00:18:12.174 --> 00:18:13.974 And of course, he was asked one spicy question. 00:18:14.134 --> 00:18:15.514 And that was if you could only choose one. 00:18:15.674 --> 00:18:17.414 Nix or Docker, which would you choose? 00:18:17.714 --> 00:18:23.114 Like you mentioned Docker, obviously, Nix or Docker. You had to choose one. Right. 00:18:23.334 --> 00:18:25.574 And the more, you know, depending on... 00:18:25.574 --> 00:18:26.934 There's like a church of Nix out there. 00:18:26.934 --> 00:18:29.734 See exactly where they're looking to modify the purpose. I have to say. 00:18:29.814 --> 00:18:34.054 Kelsey was like, I'm super excited about talking. I'm like, I feel this is going 00:18:34.054 --> 00:18:35.214 to be different. I'm like, hell yeah, that's going to be different. 00:18:35.214 --> 00:18:37.174 It's a limited subset of C that does the BPS stuff. 00:18:37.174 --> 00:18:41.054 If I had to choose one, I'm choosing Docker. And you would say, why would I do that? 00:18:41.054 --> 00:18:43.514 But there's a bunch of Python utilities around it to wrap it. 00:18:43.674 --> 00:18:48.714 Most people that are writing code, your whole number one objective is in the packaging. 00:18:48.974 --> 00:18:53.394 Or to try to preserve specific things once you identify a particular problem or threat. 00:18:53.394 --> 00:18:56.114 So if you're a developer, you look at all the things that you can ship to. 00:18:56.534 --> 00:18:59.554 Heroku, Cloud Run, Lambda, IBM. 00:18:59.954 --> 00:19:03.894 And then you got to work on a team of other people. 00:19:04.334 --> 00:19:07.714 And the hardest thing I've seen in technology is to get global consensus. 00:19:08.474 --> 00:19:15.774 We agree on something. ip addresses dns linux as a distribution that stuff takes 00:19:15.774 --> 00:19:20.234 decades sometimes and so the docker ecosystem is rich why is it rich is it a 00:19:20.234 --> 00:19:25.454 better packaging tool the next no do people know it yes, 00:19:26.294 --> 00:19:31.154 that cute little well did something people identify with it so when you say 00:19:31.154 --> 00:19:34.654 docker a lot of people understand what that means you're probably going to have 00:19:34.654 --> 00:19:39.594 a docker file that move the needle in terms of at least knowing how to rebuild software. 00:19:40.114 --> 00:19:42.514 There's still a lot of companies, maybe you work for some of them, 00:19:42.794 --> 00:19:47.214 they pride themselves that only one person knows how to build certain software 00:19:47.214 --> 00:19:49.394 on a specific laptop and no one 00:19:49.394 --> 00:19:52.234 touches that laptop because it's the only thing that can build a thing. 00:19:52.794 --> 00:19:57.054 And for a lot of people, Docker moved the needle for them. And the ecosystem's 00:19:57.054 --> 00:20:00.694 rich. There's Docker registries, there's metadata, there's all of these things. 00:20:01.594 --> 00:20:04.774 So if I had to choose only one, it would probably be Docker. 00:20:04.934 --> 00:20:10.234 So what would you take away from that what makes docker work it's not one versus 00:20:10.234 --> 00:20:12.514 the other it's just this usability curve, 00:20:13.114 --> 00:20:16.074 it meets people where they are then shows them 00:20:16.074 --> 00:20:19.634 what's next and i've been a part of a lot of technology movements that just 00:20:19.634 --> 00:20:23.434 focused on here's the next thing it's like so what do i do now to go from where 00:20:23.434 --> 00:20:26.874 i am to that and you're like i don't know man delete everything you have and 00:20:26.874 --> 00:20:31.134 start the right way just doesn't work right but i'm hoping that the two can 00:20:31.134 --> 00:20:33.474 find some synergies where it's pragmatic. 00:20:33.654 --> 00:20:38.274 And I do think Nix inside of a Dockerfile for a lot of people will solve the 00:20:38.274 --> 00:20:43.334 reproducible build problem without giving up the distribution and ease of use 00:20:43.334 --> 00:20:44.854 for other platform problem. 00:20:45.074 --> 00:20:48.974 And I think that's probably where you're going to get a lot of new people learning 00:20:48.974 --> 00:20:52.654 about this technology for the first time. So when you see them, welcome them. 00:20:53.494 --> 00:20:56.214 I think it was a good dose of reality to start the whole event, 00:20:56.954 --> 00:20:59.214 right? That's the keynote. That's the, hey, here's your reality. 00:20:59.294 --> 00:21:00.254 This is the state of the market. 00:21:02.397 --> 00:21:07.137 Yeah, so there are tools that you can just run like we've been talking about, 00:21:07.357 --> 00:21:09.217 but how did those tools come to be? 00:21:09.397 --> 00:21:13.597 Well, that's where some of those abstractions and a framework comes in that 00:21:13.597 --> 00:21:17.437 allows basically embedding C code directly within Python scripts. 00:21:18.257 --> 00:21:20.777 And then BCC's tools also sort of handle. Okay, well, the first talk is done. 00:21:21.017 --> 00:21:24.737 Kelsey Hightower and Ron had a great chat. You know, we're shifting things around 00:21:24.737 --> 00:21:28.217 a little bit. I think it's sort of for there to be some scheduling issues. 00:21:28.577 --> 00:21:31.857 It handles loading it into the kernel for you and attaching it to the right hooks. 00:21:31.857 --> 00:21:35.517 Not too bad it started a little bit late really and it was a good chat i think 00:21:35.517 --> 00:21:39.497 the room was pretty engaged lots of questions so the next thing that i'm looking 00:21:39.497 --> 00:21:44.217 at is actually being hosted by an employee of anthropic the folks behind cloud, 00:21:48.437 --> 00:21:49.397 onepassword.com. 00:21:49.397 --> 00:21:54.137 Slash unplugged that's the number one then password slash unplugged all lowercase 00:21:54.137 --> 00:21:58.457 go check it out this probably would have bought me another 10 years in it and 00:21:58.457 --> 00:22:01.377 and this is how i So your end users always. 00:22:01.517 --> 00:22:03.597 I mean, actually, literally. 00:22:03.597 --> 00:22:09.137 Always, without exception, only work on company-owned devices and only use apps 00:22:09.137 --> 00:22:10.057 that have been approved by IT. 00:22:10.057 --> 00:22:14.377 He uses XTP. And so there's a simple C program that has a function called XTPDropAll. 00:22:14.377 --> 00:22:17.237 I would love for that to be true. So the next obvious question is, 00:22:17.317 --> 00:22:18.457 then how do you keep your company's data? 00:22:18.457 --> 00:22:21.517 And so we get like a little data summary of the packet info, 00:22:21.637 --> 00:22:22.657 which we're not going to care about. 00:22:23.037 --> 00:22:27.237 All we're going to do is return XTPDrop, which is a magic value that tells the call. 00:22:27.337 --> 00:22:28.597 Hey, just dropped this. 00:22:28.597 --> 00:22:35.057 1Password Extended Access Management helps you secure every sign-on for every app on every device. 00:22:35.197 --> 00:22:39.057 It's built to solve problems that IAMs and MDMs just can't touch. 00:22:39.497 --> 00:22:43.217 Go check it out because 1Password's award-winning password manager is not only 00:22:43.217 --> 00:22:46.517 trusted by millions of users and over 150,000. 00:22:46.517 --> 00:22:47.797 Businesses from IBM and Slack. 00:22:48.337 --> 00:22:52.437 But now they're securing more than just passwords with 1Password Extended Access Management. 00:22:52.797 --> 00:22:57.657 It's the first solution that brings all these unmanaged devices and apps and identities together. 00:22:57.657 --> 00:22:58.857 Under your control. 00:22:58.857 --> 00:23:00.637 And that's because we attach it to that specific interface. It ensures that 00:23:00.637 --> 00:23:05.397 every app is strong, every credential is protected, and every device is known 00:23:05.397 --> 00:23:08.157 and healthy, and every app is visible. 00:23:08.957 --> 00:23:12.857 That's the power of 1Password. So go to 1Password.com slash unplugged. 00:23:13.017 --> 00:23:18.677 Secure every app, device, and identity, even the unmanaged ones. Eat like contractors. 00:23:19.197 --> 00:23:22.737 This would have changed the game for me. Go check it out. Support the show. 00:23:22.897 --> 00:23:25.837 Go to 1Password.com slash unplugged. 00:23:26.501 --> 00:23:29.141 It's all lowercase. They got a bunch of information up there. 00:23:29.541 --> 00:23:31.041 It's a really great opportunity. 00:23:31.461 --> 00:23:31.741 Check it out. 00:23:32.341 --> 00:23:33.221 OnePassword.com. 00:23:33.581 --> 00:23:37.781 I can't stop it, but I do have a sneaky console here. 00:23:37.821 --> 00:23:41.701 What I really appreciated was Kelsey gave kind of the overall perspective of 00:23:41.701 --> 00:23:44.101 how we should see the planet in Nix. 00:23:44.321 --> 00:23:49.261 And then Anish, specifically from Anthropic, gave how to implement this. 00:23:49.541 --> 00:23:53.241 Yeah, so like that wasn't that much work. This is just an Ubuntu 24-04 box. 00:23:53.561 --> 00:23:54.561 I'm a proud digs user for almost a decade now since college. 00:23:54.981 --> 00:23:58.841 My claim to fame is that I wrote the original implementation of Override Adders, 00:23:58.941 --> 00:24:01.301 which we all use every day, back when it was four lines of code. 00:24:02.261 --> 00:24:05.581 But for my career, I've been in the industry almost the same time, 00:24:05.641 --> 00:24:08.481 and I've been really focused on developer experience and developer tooling. 00:24:08.921 --> 00:24:11.781 Previously, I was at Lyft, leading their languages team for six and a half years. 00:24:11.961 --> 00:24:16.381 And since about a year ago, I'm at Anthropic, which is an AI safety research company. 00:24:16.821 --> 00:24:21.161 We make products like Claude, as well as we do AI safety research, 00:24:21.321 --> 00:24:24.501 such as building a Claude. and have to worry about messing up my implementation 00:24:24.501 --> 00:24:26.141 in a way that's going to crash the box. 00:24:26.201 --> 00:24:29.021 And at Anthropic, I'm on the builds and deploys team. 00:24:29.241 --> 00:24:33.721 I had high hopes for this talk because you know they got scale, right? 00:24:33.861 --> 00:24:37.541 And they're solving problems that some of us have never even thought about. 00:24:37.601 --> 00:24:38.361 And so in reality. 00:24:38.601 --> 00:24:41.221 You want to do some sort of filtering. And he's kind of still new. 00:24:41.261 --> 00:24:44.701 So he was coming in and discovering some of the issues they're having scaling. 00:24:44.801 --> 00:24:45.721 Oh, is this one I want to block? 00:24:45.721 --> 00:24:49.481 I got to Anthropic a year ago. They told me we use industry-centered tools. 00:24:49.661 --> 00:24:50.401 Obviously a lot of Python. 00:24:50.421 --> 00:24:55.401 Because it's an AI shop. we're using kubernetes and at the time the main point to show that. 00:24:55.401 --> 00:24:56.681 Was that this bcc framework. 00:24:56.681 --> 00:24:59.581 That image was 35 gigabytes large uncompressed tools but 00:24:59.581 --> 00:25:02.581 normally when people talk about a large docker image they're talking like because 00:25:02.581 --> 00:25:06.181 a couple hundred megabytes is big like a couple gigabytes is enormous and this 00:25:06.181 --> 00:25:09.481 is basically another level like the closest thing to dtrace there's good reasons 00:25:09.481 --> 00:25:12.501 for it if you don't want to use the email libraries will monomorphize their 00:25:12.501 --> 00:25:15.841 kernels for different hardware architectures of accelerators you have researchers 00:25:15.841 --> 00:25:19.101 adding things that they needed one time and maybe didn't remove since then um 00:25:19.101 --> 00:25:21.681 there's good reasons for it um but, 00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:24.920 There was also just some inefficiency in the build that hadn't been cleaned 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:29.840 up. When I got there, I pretty quickly cut out about 20% of it. 00:25:29.980 --> 00:25:34.660 You basically get a nice targeted little scripting language to write tracing 00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:36.780 programs that use the trace points. 00:25:36.840 --> 00:25:39.760 We were seeing four-minute times to pull anything, which is really painful. 00:25:40.620 --> 00:25:42.400 It's all meant that the rebuild times were almost an hour. 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:43.120 There are some other options. 00:25:43.300 --> 00:25:44.260 There's a program called Ply 00:25:44.260 --> 00:25:48.440 that I haven't tried, but it's also nice that BPF trace is quite popular. 00:25:49.220 --> 00:25:51.020 We talked about XDP. 00:25:51.320 --> 00:25:54.300 There's the Kprobe stuff. But a few months into my tenure, we had a new, 00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:58.000 very high-priority initiative that require compiled software where people are 00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:58.960 going to be changing this multiple times a day. 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:05.040 So you can do bpftrace-l or the BCC tools has TP list, which is also just a solid trace point. 00:26:05.820 --> 00:26:09.260 It also shows you can do other users-based stuff, but we're not going to talk about that today. 00:26:09.260 --> 00:26:11.940 We're going to talk about Nix Sidecar, which is a thing I built to address this, 00:26:12.060 --> 00:26:13.800 and then we'll give some closing thoughts at the end. 00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:17.880 We have the full link for the talk in the show notes with the time code. 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.760 And it's fascinating just when you realize the scale they're dealing with and 00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:25.680 the limitations that they had to struggle with across, you know, 00:26:25.820 --> 00:26:28.340 hundreds of thousands of servers. 00:26:28.520 --> 00:26:29.340 So here's sort of like. 00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:32.040 And he had to build some software to make it all work. 00:26:32.120 --> 00:26:36.120 Dirty buffer. It tells you you get a dev device, you get a sector and a size. 00:26:36.280 --> 00:26:38.880 And so, you know, those are the things you can work with. And then it has a 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.860 name and you just tell it that you want to trace that thing. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.400 So this came up because, you know, we talked a little bit about BCC having file 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:51.240 system specific tools. Like, oh, I want to watch for slow operations from ButterFS, say. 00:26:51.300 --> 00:26:54.440 Especially really competitive AI companies that you know are moving fast. 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:57.080 I suppose I should step up or someone should step up and add these, 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.220 but there isn't yet a BcacheFS version of these tools, right? 00:27:02.020 --> 00:27:05.800 Obviously, probably what you want to do is just fork the existing ButterFS one 00:27:05.800 --> 00:27:08.380 and modify it and make it work right for BcacheFS. 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:13.280 But if you want to be ad hoc about it, BPF Trace can handle this too. 00:27:13.280 --> 00:27:18.220 So, I did tplist and then grepped that for things that said bcachefs. 00:27:25.040 --> 00:27:28.540 So, here's just like a list of some of what the trace points look like. 00:27:41.418 --> 00:27:42.218 I never knew that. 00:27:42.358 --> 00:27:46.658 And so these would all be things that Kent or team have put in explicitly so 00:27:46.658 --> 00:27:51.778 that there's a way to easily and with low overhead watch these things. 00:27:55.198 --> 00:28:00.298 Right. And again, not an issue for me, but when you're talking hundreds of systems, 00:28:00.438 --> 00:28:02.938 so you can't do certain tasks in parallel, it's a killer. 00:28:04.698 --> 00:28:07.838 There's a lot of BPF terms. So here's one that stood out. 00:28:08.718 --> 00:28:11.878 Copy GC, wait. and bcashfs is 00:28:11.878 --> 00:28:15.198 a copy on write file system and it does this bucket based allocation and 00:28:15.198 --> 00:28:18.038 so it has what's called a copying garbage collector so as 00:28:18.038 --> 00:28:20.858 you're copying files it'll handle moving things around so 00:28:20.858 --> 00:28:24.018 that it can then like get good bucket allocation and 00:28:24.018 --> 00:28:28.158 defragment things on the fly that kind of thing so copy 00:28:28.158 --> 00:28:30.938 gc wait is a trace point that tells you when 00:28:30.938 --> 00:28:33.978 you're when bcashfs is waiting for copy gc 00:28:33.978 --> 00:28:36.778 to complete so it can be a reason that your 00:28:36.778 --> 00:28:39.718 file system is being slow or not responding especially if you're moving or copying 00:28:39.718 --> 00:28:45.778 files around so you can see on your screen uh just a little tiny script yeah 00:28:45.778 --> 00:28:51.058 sudo bpf trace dash e and then you pass it a little string and we tell it we 00:28:51.058 --> 00:28:56.378 want to use the trace point bcash yeah they got in trouble i guess with aws just so much. 00:28:56.378 --> 00:28:57.178 Bandwidth and that gives you an. 00:28:57.178 --> 00:29:00.118 Idea of the scale when aws is knocking on the door saying hey 00:29:00.118 --> 00:29:02.858 you're extracts you're using too much number from that 00:29:02.858 --> 00:29:06.538 you don't have to do that and then all it does is print what device 00:29:06.538 --> 00:29:09.858 we're waiting on and how much we're waiting yeah and 00:29:09.858 --> 00:29:12.498 so it's you know i don't know 10 lines of code and you 00:29:12.498 --> 00:29:23.078 get it and then 00:29:23.078 --> 00:29:27.538 so on my system i'm just doing it on you know one rudifest disk so i knew which 00:29:27.538 --> 00:29:30.098 disk it would be it was just kind of interesting to see like i went around and 00:29:30.098 --> 00:29:33.458 i dd'd some big files and copied them around and i could see like oh yeah right 00:29:33.458 --> 00:29:37.878 the operation completes and then immediately the print tells me that oh we waited that much. 00:29:51.243 --> 00:29:54.523 So, like, it turns out that like this, there's actually probably a fair amount 00:29:54.523 --> 00:29:57.943 of situations where single trace points just on their own might be something 00:29:57.943 --> 00:29:58.843 you want to look at, right? 00:29:58.923 --> 00:30:03.103 So other ones for BcacheFS, write buffer flush, that's an important event, 00:30:03.103 --> 00:30:07.123 or journal writes, you might be wanting to know stuff about how the journal works. 00:30:07.883 --> 00:30:11.983 But you can also use the scripting language and the fact that eBPF supports 00:30:11.983 --> 00:30:18.563 basic data structures like maps and histograms to make more complicated combined programs. 00:30:18.563 --> 00:30:23.223 So I had an LLM, I fed it the output of that TP list stuff that told it the 00:30:23.223 --> 00:30:26.683 available trace points and what the structures looked like. So I knew how to 00:30:26.683 --> 00:30:27.903 write the right code for it. 00:30:30.043 --> 00:30:34.983 And BPF trace makes it easy to have stuff that runs at an interval, right? 00:30:35.043 --> 00:30:38.983 So you can set up all the traces and then every five seconds it can print out 00:30:38.983 --> 00:30:40.143 a little summary that it's done. 00:30:40.243 --> 00:30:44.963 And so each time it traces it can update a variable and then it can calculate latencies or deltas. 00:30:44.963 --> 00:30:50.363 So i made this is a quick one that it did that looks at that right buffer flush trace point, 00:30:51.123 --> 00:30:54.943 and it samples it over every five seconds and then it tells you how many flushes happened, 00:30:55.523 --> 00:30:59.503 how many buffers were flushed how many were skipped how many were fast path 00:30:59.503 --> 00:31:03.543 flushes and then the total amount of data that was flushed so just like a quick 00:31:03.543 --> 00:31:07.823 way to get you know an accurate little like every five second little printout, 00:31:13.043 --> 00:31:14.903 it's one of the more performant ways to do it yeah. 00:31:20.583 --> 00:31:25.163 So then to kind of further stress just how far this whole having an ai help me out would go, 00:31:25.743 --> 00:31:29.643 uh i got i had an idea i did ultimately tone it back a bit but basically like 00:31:29.643 --> 00:31:32.923 what if i wanted to monitor some of the mesh network traffic that was going 00:31:32.923 --> 00:31:35.883 on there's a lot of options for that but can this do this too? 00:31:36.183 --> 00:31:41.003 And so it built me a little script that you give it an interface and you bring 00:31:41.003 --> 00:31:44.563 it all together and they're moving way faster. 00:31:44.863 --> 00:31:49.163 And so the infrastructure goes from a bottleneck that's holding up the product 00:31:49.163 --> 00:31:54.323 and product development in an incredibly competitive space to now facilitating 00:31:54.323 --> 00:31:56.683 product rollout and product development and testing. 00:31:57.003 --> 00:32:01.963 It's a massive shift. The IT infrastructure went from a holdup to a facilitator with these changes. 00:32:03.155 --> 00:32:06.735 Yeah, right. And so the combination of the built-ins at eBPF and then the built-ins 00:32:06.735 --> 00:32:11.235 into BPF trace, which has some of the stuff to do nice histogram display and 00:32:11.235 --> 00:32:12.735 stuff from their print command. 00:32:14.115 --> 00:32:17.435 It's, you know, this is a little bit longer. Some of it's kind of because there's 00:32:17.435 --> 00:32:19.455 a print statement for each thing we're printing. 00:32:19.655 --> 00:32:22.555 It's like five different things we're measuring, right? So it takes up some 00:32:22.555 --> 00:32:26.795 space on the screen, but like it's a single page of code here. 00:32:26.915 --> 00:32:29.675 So it's not crazy to start trying to understand it. 00:32:29.675 --> 00:32:32.895 Another talk that we wanted to attend was the creator of Nix. 00:32:33.095 --> 00:32:39.175 Elko Dostras had a bit of, I guess, an announcement and a demo to give on configurable 00:32:39.175 --> 00:32:40.715 flakes. And he had our attention. 00:32:40.875 --> 00:32:44.035 And so under the hood, it is tracing something called NetDev Start Transmit. 00:32:44.035 --> 00:32:46.015 So I submitted this stock proposal 00:32:46.015 --> 00:32:48.815 and it got accepted. So then I actually had to go and implement it. 00:32:48.835 --> 00:32:50.355 It filters on interface name from that data. 00:32:50.515 --> 00:32:56.155 But as proof that it actually works. I mean, I should say this is very work 00:32:56.155 --> 00:33:00.755 in progress. and there are a lot of rough edges and certainly the design needs 00:33:00.755 --> 00:33:04.655 to be figured out completely. 00:33:04.955 --> 00:33:08.655 And then it also does a trace point for SID packets with NetDev transmit. 00:33:08.895 --> 00:33:12.715 And then it grabs the start time if it exists for its thread identity. 00:33:13.035 --> 00:33:16.995 And then it can compute how long it took to send from that. And then that's 00:33:16.995 --> 00:33:20.655 where it can use the histogram stuff to print out a nice little thing now that it's tracking latency. 00:33:22.015 --> 00:33:28.575 And then it has another trace point to use NetDev received and flags to them on the comment line. 00:33:29.235 --> 00:33:31.775 And now you can. So here I have a little flake. 00:33:31.815 --> 00:33:34.535 Explain this to me, Wes, why this is a significant development. 00:33:34.535 --> 00:33:37.215 The fact that you can now pass arguments to a flake and whatnot. 00:33:44.475 --> 00:33:48.315 Now it does mean, right, like you can't use it if you don't have trace points you care about. 00:33:48.415 --> 00:33:52.075 And so you have to start understanding some kernel internals and like what trace 00:33:52.075 --> 00:33:53.495 points might matter and what they mean. 00:33:54.095 --> 00:33:59.075 But if you have a specific problem, or a mystery on your system that you're 00:33:59.075 --> 00:34:02.335 trying to look into and you're willing to try to chase down hypotheses using 00:34:02.335 --> 00:34:04.735 these tools, I think you could get pretty far. That's for sure. 00:34:15.335 --> 00:34:16.195 Yeah, a lot of them. 00:34:38.237 --> 00:34:41.717 There's also user space tracing you can do. So if you set it up right, 00:34:41.857 --> 00:34:45.717 you can trace like JVM events or Ruby things or Python stuff. 00:34:46.397 --> 00:34:51.277 And so you have products now too that'll use things like open telemetry or other tracing standards. 00:34:51.297 --> 00:34:55.157 And you can have a trace then that can have both the kernel side via the eppf 00:34:55.157 --> 00:35:00.697 stuff and the user space stuff without necessarily having to do as much custom 00:35:00.697 --> 00:35:05.757 observability implementation in the code base because they can kind of do more dynamic. 00:35:07.057 --> 00:35:10.677 And you might be able to then see stuff right where like oh there was a problem 00:35:10.677 --> 00:35:13.417 on the kernel layer and then that's why we started seeing increased latency 00:35:13.417 --> 00:35:14.557 in the application layer, 00:35:15.997 --> 00:35:19.477 and but you don't know you can use that there's a lot of open source products 00:35:19.477 --> 00:35:23.077 or open core things and there's just a lot of sort of primitives in one layer 00:35:23.077 --> 00:35:27.517 above primitives that are probably already on the kernel I. 00:35:27.517 --> 00:35:33.937 Don't think it's intended to be this it has to go this way but it's presented as, 00:35:37.037 --> 00:35:40.537 I got the sense we're going to try this. This is an idea. This is our approach. 00:35:41.297 --> 00:35:44.677 If this works, maybe people want to adopt it. Maybe something else will work. 00:35:44.857 --> 00:35:48.817 But to me, it was just interesting to see this, like you said, 00:35:48.957 --> 00:35:51.377 answer this kind of original complaint. Yeah. 00:35:58.117 --> 00:36:03.097 Yeah. I mean, it's been around for long enough now that it's well packaged in most distros. 00:36:08.737 --> 00:36:13.677 Well maybe we can add a trace point to firefox to keep track at least yeah, 00:36:30.057 --> 00:36:33.577 hey i just got set up with them and it was in fact very easy. 00:36:44.657 --> 00:36:47.997 That's fantastic yeah yeah i love that, 00:36:52.977 --> 00:36:54.337 oh boy, 00:37:02.357 --> 00:37:04.797 sure the configuration uh-huh, 00:37:15.697 --> 00:37:24.937 but use the flake for other right you get a great message a little display, 00:37:28.697 --> 00:37:29.837 yeah that's what i'm thinking, 00:38:01.433 --> 00:38:04.493 Oh, that's nice. Okay. 00:38:10.493 --> 00:38:11.153 Mm-hmm. 00:38:11.413 --> 00:38:11.813 Oh, hoo. 00:38:37.313 --> 00:38:40.573 We have the full talk with the time code because they're like eight-hour streams. 00:38:40.733 --> 00:38:42.093 We have the time code linked in the show notes. 00:38:42.333 --> 00:38:46.213 And if this fascinates you, it's worth it to just look at the demo that Elko 00:38:46.213 --> 00:38:48.333 gives. Yeah, he kind of... 00:38:56.633 --> 00:38:58.433 Day one, we packed a lot in. 00:38:58.433 --> 00:39:03.833 It is officially the end of day one of planet nix in fact we just got done visiting 00:39:03.833 --> 00:39:08.833 the flocks after party dinner and i think one thing really stood out to everybody 00:39:08.833 --> 00:39:13.293 we talked to they're super excited this is happening almost to the point where 00:39:13.293 --> 00:39:15.933 they had a hard time absorbing day one. 00:39:16.973 --> 00:39:21.173 Yeah i think so we were trying to pry out some details right like what are you 00:39:21.173 --> 00:39:24.893 most excited for what were the things that like you know really got you keyed 00:39:24.893 --> 00:39:27.413 up cool i think everyone was just I love success stories like this. 00:39:27.433 --> 00:39:29.533 Vibin' hard on Nick's murdery. 00:39:29.553 --> 00:39:31.713 So it's hard to soak it all in. 00:39:31.813 --> 00:39:34.693 And you had to have a little pizza and maybe a beer or something. 00:39:34.853 --> 00:39:38.693 Something to drink to, you know, relax and... Sink into it. Yeah, 00:39:38.833 --> 00:39:41.313 exactly. Figure out what your next flake you're going to make is. 00:39:41.733 --> 00:39:48.093 I think, too, it was like just the final chance, everybody finally getting the 00:39:48.093 --> 00:39:52.033 chance to talk to someone else about something that they're interested and excited 00:39:52.033 --> 00:39:54.773 about that is Nick's, right? because usually a lot of the people here are the 00:39:54.773 --> 00:39:56.553 only person in the room that knows Nix. 00:39:56.833 --> 00:39:59.293 And so even when they're at work, they don't really get to share in that. 00:39:59.413 --> 00:40:02.713 And here, everybody knows the language and they get to talk about it, 00:40:02.793 --> 00:40:04.593 much like it was when I went to the early Linux Fest. 00:40:05.553 --> 00:40:09.413 Yeah, right. You don't have to assume like, oh, you've got the NT experience. 00:40:09.813 --> 00:40:12.973 You don't have to explain what Linux is. And here, you don't have to explain 00:40:12.973 --> 00:40:17.513 what Nix is or compare it and make a bunch of bad analogies to other tools. 00:40:17.993 --> 00:40:23.153 I also really like seeing a lot of the folks who gave talks today were here tonight. 00:40:23.353 --> 00:40:28.613 And you could tell that maybe the question that you have or have a question, 00:40:28.773 --> 00:40:33.133 have a comment or like conversation starter that doesn't make sense to ask in 00:40:33.133 --> 00:40:37.593 a room full of hundreds of people might make sense to ask while you're both having a bite to eat. 00:40:37.773 --> 00:40:41.133 And you could see those kinds of connections or different folks working in different 00:40:41.133 --> 00:40:45.473 companies all using necks in different ways, sharing tips and tricks. 00:40:45.473 --> 00:40:49.053 Yeah, and that's what's great is you just get right to the problem-solving yeah 00:40:49.053 --> 00:40:51.533 What do you do? Oh, yeah? Oh you solve this? 00:40:51.813 --> 00:40:55.993 Oh, how'd you do that? And that's that's every conversation at dinner. It's pretty great. 00:40:56.393 --> 00:40:58.793 Hopefully day two is also just as great. 00:41:01.706 --> 00:41:05.426 So you've wanted to get in on the boosting fun, or maybe even stack some sats, 00:41:05.646 --> 00:41:08.986 but you know there's a lot of crap, grift and scams in crypto, 00:41:09.146 --> 00:41:12.626 so you've just avoided the whole thing. Your instincts are right. 00:41:13.566 --> 00:41:20.966 99% of all of it is just crap. There's a term for it, but since we're in polite company, I won't use it. 00:41:21.926 --> 00:41:25.546 So let me tell you how I do it, the services and systems I use. 00:41:26.006 --> 00:41:27.986 I've been following this industry since before. 00:41:28.106 --> 00:41:33.206 It was an industry about 14 years. and I've really landed on just a couple of really safe paths. 00:41:33.486 --> 00:41:36.566 The number one thing you need to look out for is Bitcoin only. 00:41:37.346 --> 00:41:41.966 Wherever you're getting your sats, Bitcoin only. Don't mess with anything else. 00:41:42.146 --> 00:41:44.546 If you think about it from just a technology platform. 00:41:45.046 --> 00:41:47.306 Every stupid crypto is its own platform. 00:41:47.326 --> 00:41:51.386 It needs its own nodes and its own software kit, everything. 00:41:51.586 --> 00:41:56.086 So the more coins you support, the more just vulnerability surface area you 00:41:56.086 --> 00:42:00.626 have, complexity you have, orchestration you have. Just go with Bitcoin only. 00:42:00.866 --> 00:42:04.146 It's deep enough and complex enough that a company should focus on it. 00:42:04.246 --> 00:42:05.866 And that's why I like River. 00:42:06.746 --> 00:42:11.566 JupiterBroadcasting.com slash River is our link. That'll get you some sats and us some sats. 00:42:11.706 --> 00:42:17.526 What I like about them is they are U.S., Bitcoin only, proof of reserves. 00:42:17.806 --> 00:42:23.386 They have zero-fee recurring buys. They have free automatic withdrawal self-custody. 00:42:23.626 --> 00:42:27.186 They give you all the tax information you need. They support Lightning. 00:42:27.186 --> 00:42:32.046 And they have a bunch of great security features and they have a 3.8% Bitcoin interest on cash. 00:42:32.786 --> 00:42:36.046 And it's a great way to safely buy sats and then send them to a lightning wall. 00:42:36.166 --> 00:42:38.966 That's river at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash river. 00:42:39.226 --> 00:42:42.686 If you're in Canada, I think the Bitcoin well is fantastic. 00:42:42.966 --> 00:42:46.126 I've met with these companies. I have used these companies. 00:42:46.906 --> 00:42:51.626 I am a customer of these companies and I have sat on video calls and had them 00:42:51.626 --> 00:42:52.646 answer all of my questions. 00:42:53.961 --> 00:42:58.841 Bitcoin well.com slash Jupiter. This is great in Canada and in the US. 00:42:59.021 --> 00:43:03.261 They're really slick because they do custody first. Everything is self custody. 00:43:03.441 --> 00:43:05.221 They never even hold your book. It doesn't fit every activity. 00:43:05.501 --> 00:43:06.361 So it's sort of a general use in spring of time. 00:43:06.361 --> 00:43:08.441 You buy it and it goes to your wallet or your Lightning wallet. 00:43:08.701 --> 00:43:11.561 That's really slick. And it's great for a self custody setup. 00:43:11.721 --> 00:43:14.821 And when you think about some of the properties of Bitcoin, the self hosting 00:43:14.821 --> 00:43:16.541 and self custody is one of the most powerful aspects. 00:43:16.781 --> 00:43:19.201 That's Bitcoin well.com slash Jupiter. 00:43:20.381 --> 00:43:24.261 If you're outside the U.S. and Canada, if you can, I would use Strike, 00:43:24.501 --> 00:43:28.461 another Bitcoin-only company, really solid infrastructure, run by great people. 00:43:28.601 --> 00:43:31.301 I've got a dual monitor set up in the sort of main office. 00:43:31.301 --> 00:43:32.621 Strike is an app, and it's available in 110 countries. 00:43:32.641 --> 00:43:33.181 Just a single. 00:43:33.601 --> 00:43:36.481 You buy the stats, and they're on the Lightning Network, and you send them over 00:43:36.481 --> 00:43:37.901 to a podcasting app or your own wallet. 00:43:37.961 --> 00:43:38.461 Sort of desk. 00:43:39.301 --> 00:43:40.381 This is not a paid spot. 00:43:40.661 --> 00:43:42.201 I'm just trying to make it clear to you how I do it. That's for the casual work 00:43:42.201 --> 00:43:43.741 where I want to do stuff but with the TV on. 00:43:43.741 --> 00:43:48.681 You know, sometimes there are very attractive looking companies out there, 00:43:48.781 --> 00:43:53.701 like things like Coinbase that really try to lure you in or Crypto.com. Don't use those. 00:43:54.201 --> 00:43:57.741 You're never going to hear me plug those or mention those on the show. 00:43:58.061 --> 00:44:02.121 It's River at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash River. It's Bitcoinwell, 00:44:02.561 --> 00:44:06.161 bitcoinwell.com slash Jupiter, or it's the Strike app. 00:44:06.641 --> 00:44:11.021 I have no affiliate link for them, but I still recommend them. 00:44:11.021 --> 00:44:13.901 And I just want to give you that tip because if you want to get it on the boosting 00:44:13.901 --> 00:44:17.781 and support the show, those are safe, easy, cheap ways to do it. 00:44:18.141 --> 00:44:23.161 I think probably strike is the cheapest of the batch and then river and then Bitcoin will. 00:44:24.021 --> 00:44:27.141 That's my hot tip. Thanks for listening to my PSA. 00:44:29.950 --> 00:44:33.710 Well, day two went pretty quickly, but we did get a recap from the night before. 00:44:33.990 --> 00:44:38.610 Here we go. It's day two of Planet Nix, and the vibe is a little more serious. 00:44:38.950 --> 00:44:42.150 It's a little more focused. It's a little bit more let's get things done. 00:44:42.230 --> 00:44:45.450 In fact, just in our walk-in, we're hearing people that are here with their 00:44:45.450 --> 00:44:47.410 laptops, and they're ready to take the plunge. 00:44:47.870 --> 00:44:51.910 But I think some of us perhaps stayed up a little too late watching Star Trek. 00:44:52.330 --> 00:44:56.550 Too late? I mean, isn't that tradition? Wes and I stay up later than everyone 00:44:56.550 --> 00:44:59.150 else, and then we have our, like, moments together. there. 00:44:59.830 --> 00:45:01.870 But Wes, you seem to be doing all right. Maybe you paced yourself? 00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:06.130 I did. Yeah. I think, you know, I only had one or two beers, 00:45:06.350 --> 00:45:08.130 had some pizza last night. 00:45:08.370 --> 00:45:13.810 So, uh, and despite yesterday's enterprise being on, we managed to go to bed before midnight. 00:45:14.310 --> 00:45:17.790 It is a great episode. It is a great episode. And then I woke up in the morning 00:45:17.790 --> 00:45:20.650 before you boys and it was paused and I finished the episode. 00:45:21.990 --> 00:45:23.010 We wrote down our time. 00:45:24.110 --> 00:45:25.830 I do think that'll be in one of my future. 00:45:26.030 --> 00:45:29.570 Oh, good. You You should. You should finish that one. So we're going to do the first talk. 00:45:29.810 --> 00:45:32.670 One of the things we'll be doing in the first talk of the day is we'll be saying 00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:34.550 hello to the crowd, introducing the podcast. 00:45:34.890 --> 00:45:38.010 And then it's talk after talk. And we're going to try to cram in a few interviews. 00:45:38.410 --> 00:45:40.910 This one's a busy one. What if I want a chain display together? 00:45:41.250 --> 00:45:44.530 We are not famous people. We are not celebrities of any kind, 00:45:44.530 --> 00:45:47.430 except for when we go to Nix events and Linux events. 00:45:47.970 --> 00:45:51.350 So I had a chance to introduce the team to the crowd. But most of us, 00:45:51.450 --> 00:45:54.310 I think probably most of them are probably familiar with this and we're listening 00:45:54.310 --> 00:45:55.910 to the shows already. So hello, everybody. 00:45:56.690 --> 00:46:01.450 Um, and one of the folks that we wanted to grab was Ross from Phlox because, 00:46:01.870 --> 00:46:05.370 well, we always enjoy chatting with him just even off air, but he had a great 00:46:05.370 --> 00:46:08.310 analogy in one of these sidebar conversations. And I was like, 00:46:08.370 --> 00:46:10.450 you know what, boys, we got to go back and get that on mic. 00:46:11.317 --> 00:46:15.417 Returning to the show at Planet Nix. Ross, thank you for joining me. 00:46:15.657 --> 00:46:18.257 Thanks for having me. I have just like a couple of questions for you. 00:46:19.977 --> 00:46:24.497 Number one is you gave me a great analogy yesterday, and I'm wondering if you 00:46:24.497 --> 00:46:26.257 could repeat it for the audience now that we have a microphone. 00:46:26.617 --> 00:46:30.157 And it was the selling seats to people that are already sitting down. Oh, yeah. 00:46:31.497 --> 00:46:36.377 We're trying to figure out in the Phlox and Nix ecosystem what that barrier to entry is. 00:46:36.477 --> 00:46:39.077 And more often than not, what I'm finding is that people are just like, 00:46:39.197 --> 00:46:39.997 it's not the right moment. 00:46:41.057 --> 00:46:43.657 And you're like, no, hey, we have this amazing thing for you. 00:46:43.777 --> 00:46:45.377 It's going to change the way you do everything. And they're like, 00:46:45.437 --> 00:46:48.297 I don't want to change the way I do everything right now. 00:46:48.597 --> 00:46:52.097 And I've started to realize that what we're doing is we're selling chairs. 00:46:52.297 --> 00:46:55.277 We're selling really comfortable chairs. And it's like, it's got a cup holder 00:46:55.277 --> 00:46:59.237 and it's got a back pillow and it's got a seatbelt to keep you safe and a heater 00:46:59.237 --> 00:47:01.477 and an air conditioner and all these things. And that's what we're selling. 00:47:01.637 --> 00:47:04.977 And people are like, nah, I already stuffed this pillow behind here and I bungee 00:47:04.977 --> 00:47:06.997 corded my drink to the side and I'm good. 00:47:07.137 --> 00:47:09.517 I'm good. Don't bother me right now. I'm already sitting down. 00:47:09.517 --> 00:47:10.877 I'm already sitting down. Exactly. 00:47:11.097 --> 00:47:12.897 And we're like, no, but this chair is amazing. And they're like, 00:47:12.997 --> 00:47:15.137 you know what? Catch me on the way back from the bathroom. 00:47:15.277 --> 00:47:15.597 Yeah, you're right. 00:47:15.637 --> 00:47:17.617 That's good. Maybe I'll try it then. Maybe I'll try it then. 00:47:17.717 --> 00:47:20.357 Maybe I'll stand up and you'll get a moment there and I'll sit down in your 00:47:20.357 --> 00:47:23.557 new chair and I'll probably find something that I don't quite love about it 00:47:23.557 --> 00:47:25.377 because I'd already figured out my old chair. 00:47:25.637 --> 00:47:28.837 Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that's when somebody's already comfortable. It's a tough sell. 00:47:28.997 --> 00:47:33.537 It is. It is. And especially when you're doing something really disruptive like Nix. 00:47:33.677 --> 00:47:38.697 Yeah. You're saying, I'm going to change the way you deal with all your software. 00:47:38.957 --> 00:47:42.217 Right. I mean, that's not a tiny thing to ask somebody to do. 00:47:42.317 --> 00:47:45.397 That's a huge thing to ask somebody to do. And so you have to be really clear 00:47:45.397 --> 00:47:46.397 about what are the benefits. 00:47:46.517 --> 00:47:47.117 What are the reasons. 00:47:47.217 --> 00:47:49.617 What's driving you over that hill. 00:47:49.757 --> 00:47:51.257 And that means it is broadly used, too. 00:47:51.257 --> 00:47:55.617 What is filling your bladder enough to make you stand up and go and then come 00:47:55.617 --> 00:47:58.297 back and sit down in a different chair? That's great. 00:47:58.537 --> 00:48:02.837 Okay, so then something else that I noticed is yesterday you had, which is day one. 00:48:02.957 --> 00:48:05.357 As we record, you had to talk about Nix in the Wild. Yes. 00:48:05.477 --> 00:48:06.897 And so I sent you an example. 00:48:06.897 --> 00:48:09.437 I guess I didn't really understand this last time. 00:48:10.266 --> 00:48:14.526 You actually have people doing surveys of actual customers, asking them questions 00:48:14.526 --> 00:48:17.526 of how it's going. You're actually collecting data of Nix in the wild. 00:48:17.766 --> 00:48:21.606 Well, you might say it like that. I would say we collect stories. 00:48:21.846 --> 00:48:25.886 So this is an interview process. Kind of probably similar to what you do a lot 00:48:25.886 --> 00:48:28.526 is we'll find somebody who's using Nix in the wild, and we'll say, 00:48:28.606 --> 00:48:29.846 are you willing to tell us your story? 00:48:30.366 --> 00:48:33.646 We invite them onto a call with us. They talk for 45 minutes. 00:48:33.746 --> 00:48:35.046 We ask them basic questions. 00:48:35.186 --> 00:48:37.046 What are you using it for? How did you find it? 00:48:37.066 --> 00:48:37.866 What is your process? 00:48:38.086 --> 00:48:39.126 And all these things. And under that, there's rules. 00:48:39.126 --> 00:48:40.386 And then we write an article. 00:48:41.006 --> 00:48:43.926 What I want to do in the future is even more than that. 00:48:44.046 --> 00:48:47.106 I want to have more data in these articles. I want to have more code snippets 00:48:47.106 --> 00:48:49.406 in these articles and more guidance, more quotations. 00:48:49.526 --> 00:48:53.486 And then I'd love to do some analysis. We have maybe eight or nine of them now. 00:48:53.546 --> 00:48:54.466 But when we have like 30. 00:48:54.706 --> 00:48:58.046 We can start to do some pattern matching. The things we've already figured out 00:48:58.046 --> 00:48:59.926 are really interesting. 00:49:00.186 --> 00:49:05.006 We figured out that generally Nix happens in a nucleus at a company and starts growing from there. 00:49:05.546 --> 00:49:08.006 We found that generally it's not the first thing people choose. 00:49:08.006 --> 00:49:11.346 They see it, and they go, oh, that sounds like exactly what I want, 00:49:11.366 --> 00:49:14.046 but I am not willing to confront that yet. 00:49:14.346 --> 00:49:16.066 And then they go and they try a few other things. 00:49:16.246 --> 00:49:18.706 They attempt to circumnavigate the problem in 10 different ways, 00:49:18.706 --> 00:49:21.166 and then they come back and go, all right, take a deep breath. 00:49:21.546 --> 00:49:22.646 Let's climb this mountain. 00:49:22.746 --> 00:49:25.086 And so we find that that's a pattern that's interesting. 00:49:25.326 --> 00:49:29.166 But, you know, you can do specific reports that you want to watch. 00:49:29.286 --> 00:49:31.746 You can do specific IPs, host names, TCP states. 00:49:31.746 --> 00:49:34.486 I guess what I thought was interesting, though, is you're probably getting stories 00:49:34.486 --> 00:49:38.506 after story of how people are solving problems with Nix. And I think one of 00:49:38.506 --> 00:49:42.086 the things that I'm discovering this year in particular is a lot of people here 00:49:42.086 --> 00:49:44.486 are a little bit more willing to talk about how they're using Nix in production. 00:49:44.886 --> 00:49:48.406 And there hasn't been a lot of that. So I love the idea of publicly sharing these stories. 00:49:48.406 --> 00:49:49.806 Maybe there's something you're trying to hunt for. You find it here, 00:49:49.846 --> 00:49:51.826 and then you can go do the TCP dump to capture the traffic. 00:49:51.826 --> 00:49:54.726 People are solving it. And even maybe some of the code they use to fix those 00:49:54.726 --> 00:49:57.846 problems. That could really help people just solve the same issue. 00:49:58.246 --> 00:50:01.466 Absolutely. I mean, if you look at the Nix community this year versus last year, 00:50:02.406 --> 00:50:03.846 it's notably different. 00:50:04.046 --> 00:50:05.266 Well, you kind of hinted at this a bit. 00:50:05.266 --> 00:50:10.606 The level of conversations one higher. The things that people are asking about. 00:50:10.826 --> 00:50:16.766 The things that people are trying to solve, are one level more sophisticated. We're starting to see. 00:50:17.286 --> 00:50:21.426 I think, people having real production use cases. I agree. People who've gotten 00:50:21.426 --> 00:50:24.786 to day 1000, and they're like, okay, here's the day 1000 experience. 00:50:25.066 --> 00:50:26.886 And it's not what I thought it was gonna be. 00:50:27.790 --> 00:50:33.050 More vibrant and more interesting and more challenging, but also more valuable. 00:50:33.230 --> 00:50:35.230 Yeah, and you're not hearing people say, we got to this point, 00:50:35.350 --> 00:50:36.570 and now we're sick of it, we're bailing. 00:50:36.750 --> 00:50:39.550 What you're hearing is, we're going to continue to use it, we're going to go even further. 00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:42.910 Yeah, they're like, we're waist deep, we're in it. Thank you, Ross. 00:50:43.190 --> 00:50:44.050 So think of all those things like CYSTL. 00:50:44.050 --> 00:50:46.970 Well, we always love chatting with Ross and getting an update every year. 00:50:47.050 --> 00:50:51.090 But we also got to see one of our favorite listeners, Olympia Mike, 00:50:51.290 --> 00:50:56.810 was there taking in the Nix, but also showcasing one of his newest Nix projects. 00:50:57.570 --> 00:51:02.010 Man, this is wild, right? If you think about, I was thinking about this in the room. 00:51:02.370 --> 00:51:06.230 We went from the summer of immutability, and I was like, what are these guys 00:51:06.230 --> 00:51:07.590 talking about, this Nix thing? 00:51:07.770 --> 00:51:11.910 And now we're sitting here, what, two, three years later, at Planet Nix, 00:51:12.270 --> 00:51:16.650 you know, which is just wild. Are you blaming us for your trajectory? 00:51:16.810 --> 00:51:20.710 Yeah, 100%. Okay, got it. I think I had a slide dedicated to blaming you guys 00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:21.990 for my discovery of NixOS. 00:51:22.810 --> 00:51:25.730 So what are you doing with NixOS these days? So, oh, boy. 00:51:25.930 --> 00:51:29.730 Well, I'm doing a bunch of stuff. So I just got done finishing my talk on building 00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:32.070 a Chromebook replacement with NixOS. 00:51:32.190 --> 00:51:33.730 Yeah, and they kind of make the case here too. 00:51:33.730 --> 00:51:39.130 I almost named it NixOS for your mom. You know, because the idea is like setting 00:51:39.130 --> 00:51:44.110 up NixOS for a general user, basic user use. But like NixOS for your mom. 00:51:44.410 --> 00:51:46.490 I'm not going to hand-tune all your dynamic web workers. 00:51:46.750 --> 00:51:48.370 So you decided on a different name? Yeah. 00:51:48.450 --> 00:51:49.790 So basically, you know. 00:51:49.870 --> 00:51:52.910 People that want a Chromebook-like experience, but without the creepy Google 00:51:52.910 --> 00:51:56.090 stuff, right? They just want it to be automatic. They just want everything to work. 00:51:56.530 --> 00:51:58.810 They want everything to be one-click install. 00:51:59.330 --> 00:52:02.790 And so, yeah, that's why I've built that with NixOS and I've been deploying 00:52:02.790 --> 00:52:05.650 it out there in the real world for friends, family, and local people. 00:52:06.530 --> 00:52:10.230 And yeah, so I give a talk on how I did that and hopefully get more eyes on the project. 00:52:11.194 --> 00:52:15.454 Tell us a little bit more about why you built this, because it sounds like you 00:52:15.454 --> 00:52:19.094 have a project in which you're giving back to the community, 00:52:19.094 --> 00:52:23.414 and that was kind of the thrust to use Nix to make your job a little easier. Yeah, absolutely. 00:52:23.714 --> 00:52:27.694 So if you were to look at a heat map of Linux users, there's probably a giant 00:52:27.694 --> 00:52:29.054 red spot in Olympia, Washington. 00:52:29.514 --> 00:52:34.454 And that's because for the past five years, I've been getting donation computers 00:52:34.454 --> 00:52:39.214 from people, people that are just, I have this old laptop sitting in my closet, 00:52:39.374 --> 00:52:42.094 don't know what to do with it, and they give it to me. 00:52:42.254 --> 00:52:48.134 And I've even buddied up with school districts and companies that are getting rid of old hardware. 00:52:48.334 --> 00:52:53.294 And so they know that I'm a safe place to bring it because I securely wipe everything 00:52:53.294 --> 00:52:54.414 before anything goes out. 00:52:54.534 --> 00:52:57.214 And some people want data off their drives or whatever. 00:52:57.514 --> 00:53:05.774 So what I do is I take these machines and I Linux them up and donate them back out to the community. 00:53:05.774 --> 00:53:09.674 And what I was doing was doing Linux Mint because Linux Mint is, 00:53:09.934 --> 00:53:15.394 you know, love it or hate it, it is definitely the most friendly environment 00:53:15.394 --> 00:53:17.594 and UI for somebody coming from Windows. 00:53:17.994 --> 00:53:22.034 And overall that worked great, but I noticed there were some issues with Linux 00:53:22.034 --> 00:53:25.114 Mint, people not doing updates, a little package confusion stuff. 00:53:25.114 --> 00:53:31.294 And so what I thought was, what if I built this in Nix and was able to like 00:53:31.294 --> 00:53:38.174 rebuild Linux Mint, you know, in Nix with all the upgrades that I wanted to do. And I did. 00:53:38.614 --> 00:53:42.954 You said you basically built your own distribution, but I would imagine Nix 00:53:42.954 --> 00:53:47.034 enabled you to do that in a way that you would have never considered doing without it. Oh, absolutely. 00:53:47.414 --> 00:53:51.254 Yeah, yeah. Linux from scratch or even, you know, back in the day, 00:53:51.374 --> 00:53:55.174 before I discovered Nix, how I did this was basically like Arch. 00:53:56.046 --> 00:53:59.066 Shell scripts like install arch and then run this script sounds scary 00:53:59.066 --> 00:54:02.366 already it sounds scary already yeah yeah sure enough and yeah it never bit 00:54:02.366 --> 00:54:07.026 me sure i'm lying yeah it sounds like a little bit of pain points but also just 00:54:07.026 --> 00:54:12.806 you mentioned you're now taking care of 400 to 500 laptop yeah so i have uh 00:54:12.806 --> 00:54:16.606 there's probably four at least four to five hundred of these i call them nix books, 00:54:17.346 --> 00:54:22.046 out there in the world and uh and and many of them are in my house as well so 00:54:22.046 --> 00:54:25.326 i have my kids My parents, they're all using Nixbook. 00:54:25.546 --> 00:54:28.166 And it's just, it's fantastic. 00:54:28.446 --> 00:54:32.006 It really is that perfect zero maintenance. 00:54:32.286 --> 00:54:35.706 Open it up and it just works. All the updates are done for you. 00:54:35.866 --> 00:54:37.486 You just never need to worry about anything. 00:54:37.786 --> 00:54:41.906 And it's just that all the guarantees and the security that you get with Nix 00:54:41.906 --> 00:54:46.826 for a general user. I mean, it kind of is perfect. 00:54:47.106 --> 00:54:52.386 It was great to see Olympia Mike. He had a great talk. and we wanted to wrap 00:54:52.386 --> 00:54:57.326 it up with Ron, who we started this adventure with Ron, who is co-founder of 00:54:57.326 --> 00:54:59.566 Phlox and of course the chair of the NixOS Foundation. 00:54:59.726 --> 00:55:05.486 And we wanted to check in with him a day after things just to see how it had gone for him. 00:55:05.566 --> 00:55:09.706 And now that he's just attending regular old scale, what's it been like just 00:55:09.706 --> 00:55:12.626 with the average folks who are coming for a general Linux convention? 00:55:12.846 --> 00:55:17.206 How do you feel the first Planet Nix went? I mean, I think it was incredible. 00:55:17.426 --> 00:55:20.166 Yeah. I can only speak for myself for just the energy in the 00:55:20.166 --> 00:55:23.086 room but seeing over 300 people standing room 00:55:23.086 --> 00:55:26.326 only on two tracks yeah workshops talks 00:55:26.326 --> 00:55:28.986 all that i think that was incredible you know what i noticed and i 00:55:28.986 --> 00:55:32.546 wonder if you picked up on this is it felt like both in 00:55:32.546 --> 00:55:37.626 terms of talks and in terms of attendees people were talking about how they 00:55:37.626 --> 00:55:41.606 use nyx at work more out in the open like we're using it here we're replacing 00:55:41.606 --> 00:55:44.486 this with nyx did you see more of that did you hear more of that this year i 00:55:44.486 --> 00:55:48.726 100 did and And I think that was the thing when we intentionally really tried 00:55:48.726 --> 00:55:50.346 to communicate with Planet Nix. 00:55:50.686 --> 00:55:56.706 It's going to be a bit different. It's going to be a bit more Nix beginners, Nix at work doing that. 00:55:56.806 --> 00:56:00.586 And I think it was received so well that that's kind of the ecosystem that showed up here, right? 00:56:00.766 --> 00:56:04.486 We have a good mix of advanced contributors, but also a good mix of folks that 00:56:04.486 --> 00:56:10.386 finally felt really comfortable being able to talk about, hey, 00:56:10.446 --> 00:56:12.866 I just want to bring it in. I'm not an expert. What do I do? 00:56:13.206 --> 00:56:17.126 And I love those conversations. Yeah, because you walk away with like real solutions. 00:56:17.286 --> 00:56:20.386 Like, oh, that's how you fix that. Like there's been a couple of conversations. 00:56:20.826 --> 00:56:23.926 Where people just had breakthroughs. Like, oh, that's how you're doing that? 00:56:24.166 --> 00:56:26.946 Oh, what a brilliant idea. Because there's always a lot of ways to solve problems. 00:56:27.306 --> 00:56:30.006 Exactly, exactly. And I think it's, look, I mean, think about it. 00:56:30.166 --> 00:56:34.306 We're a pretty tight-knit community. We're a pretty extreme technical community. 00:56:34.346 --> 00:56:39.726 It must be, and it probably is, kind of scary to come in and say, 00:56:39.946 --> 00:56:43.966 hey, how do I do this thing for a commercial reason, right? open source, 00:56:44.126 --> 00:56:46.146 commercial, that already has a little bit of friction. 00:56:46.346 --> 00:56:49.106 So when you're like, all I want it to do is to solve a problem. 00:56:50.117 --> 00:56:56.317 Apple, at Anthropic, at, you know, take name of presenter that attended this year. 00:56:56.577 --> 00:56:59.957 I think it's kind of scary, and I'm really happy to see that folks were talking about it. 00:57:00.037 --> 00:57:04.457 I think it means that we kind of removed the barriers a bit and opened our arms 00:57:04.457 --> 00:57:06.177 a bit wider for folks like that. 00:57:06.337 --> 00:57:10.737 So putting your Phlox hat on, we're standing right here at the Phlox booth in 00:57:10.737 --> 00:57:13.057 the scale side of the event in the Expo Hall. 00:57:13.477 --> 00:57:18.837 What's the average scale attendee interest been in Phlox and the solving problems 00:57:18.837 --> 00:57:21.517 that Phlox solves? I mean, I think we're seeing the transition, 00:57:21.737 --> 00:57:22.877 right? We're seeing kind of that. 00:57:23.157 --> 00:57:27.277 We were here two years ago, actually at a Nix booth, right? Because we hosted 00:57:27.277 --> 00:57:29.377 the first Nix booth ever at scale two years ago. 00:57:29.497 --> 00:57:32.277 And folks were coming by and being like, what's Nix? 00:57:32.957 --> 00:57:37.377 Now, folks are coming by and being like, oh, you're that, are you that thing 00:57:37.377 --> 00:57:39.957 that bridges all the gaps that I currently have with containers? 00:57:39.977 --> 00:57:44.477 And they're coming to us with a, hey, I want to, I've started to use this instead 00:57:44.477 --> 00:57:47.317 of homebrew, or I've, you know, this has improved my life over here. 00:57:47.317 --> 00:57:50.297 So that's a really amazing feeling, right? 00:57:50.377 --> 00:57:54.197 You're kind of, folks are starting to that discovery phase and the excitement 00:57:54.197 --> 00:57:56.317 phase, both about Nix and about Phlox. 00:57:56.497 --> 00:58:01.637 And I'm seeing a lot of scale attendees who are not specifically from the Nix 00:58:01.637 --> 00:58:06.177 ecosystem come up, recognize, mention already being, you know, 00:58:06.357 --> 00:58:09.397 looking into it, which is always a more lovely deep conversation. 00:58:09.577 --> 00:58:12.437 It's such a great opportunity because the conversations are so high bandwidth. 00:58:12.597 --> 00:58:13.977 So you just get so much more context. 00:58:14.357 --> 00:58:17.637 You know, that's something that I really appreciated about us being here is 00:58:17.637 --> 00:58:21.657 I feel like we just understand a lot more about what people are working on and 00:58:21.657 --> 00:58:25.997 what's really kind of on front of people's mind right now and what they're thinking of. 00:58:26.317 --> 00:58:28.537 Like there's just the bandwidth you get in these conversations. 00:58:28.537 --> 00:58:32.597 It's so much richer than the online communications. I almost wish we could do it more than once a year. 00:58:33.277 --> 00:58:36.697 I do too. I think that would be lovely. I mean, the fact that we can, 00:58:37.077 --> 00:58:42.197 you know, user, a person, an attendee shows up and it's like, here's my problems. 00:58:42.917 --> 00:58:45.697 Show me how you solve them for me. And what we do 00:58:45.697 --> 00:58:48.537 is like crack open a laptop and you know 00:58:48.537 --> 00:58:52.677 the person leaves with like a holy cow i think i think i got this licked i can 00:58:52.677 --> 00:58:57.797 i can solve this yes yeah yeah it's hard to get not in person not face to face 00:58:57.797 --> 00:59:01.357 and yeah and that's incredible well ron thank you thank you for bringing us 00:59:01.357 --> 00:59:03.837 down here and thanks for putting on a great event we really enjoyed it we're 00:59:03.837 --> 00:59:06.277 gonna do it again next year with you guys so i'm excited all right. 00:59:06.277 --> 00:59:09.717 I hope so you know because before we went down i was like oh is it worth it 00:59:09.717 --> 00:59:13.337 you know we could probably do a lot of this just remotely but man is it so worth 00:59:13.337 --> 00:59:17.937 it just things to figure out the context you get the insights all of that is 00:59:17.937 --> 00:59:19.617 just is really super worth it and you agree, 00:59:40.637 --> 00:59:44.517 Brent, I wonder if you noticed this too, but it feels like there is an ecosystem 00:59:44.517 --> 00:59:48.277 assembling here with different vendors providing solutions built on top of Nix. 00:59:48.417 --> 00:59:50.217 That's been kind of fascinating to watch too. 00:59:50.877 --> 00:59:54.277 Yeah, it seemed really exciting that the ecosystem is maturing, 00:59:54.277 --> 00:59:55.997 even from what we saw last year. 00:59:56.457 --> 01:00:00.777 And Chris, you mentioned this quickly, that it seems like the corporate world 01:00:00.777 --> 01:00:02.977 is now okay to share what they're doing with Nix. 01:00:03.077 --> 01:00:09.397 And we heard sort of in the hush hush that there's a lot of businesses who are 01:00:09.397 --> 01:00:10.437 household names, really, 01:00:10.657 --> 01:00:14.577 that are using Nix and maybe aren't willing to talk about it right now, 01:00:14.717 --> 01:00:18.217 but are being sort of convinced to talk about all the really neat things they're 01:00:18.217 --> 01:00:19.797 doing with Nix and NixOS. 01:00:20.357 --> 01:00:25.397 So I thought, at least from a perspective of going from last year to this year 01:00:25.397 --> 01:00:29.197 and seeing where that trend is going, I think we're in for a good time here. 01:00:30.777 --> 01:00:34.257 Now you heard some of our biggest takeaways from Planet Nix. 01:00:34.257 --> 01:00:38.277 We, of course, have so many more, and it's a treat if you're in person to grab 01:00:38.277 --> 01:00:42.117 those, but we also have a little treat from our community. 01:00:42.397 --> 01:00:46.917 So the first one was we had a little invitation by System76, 01:00:46.917 --> 01:00:51.137 longtime friends of the show, to do a little laser tag. 01:00:51.337 --> 01:00:54.797 And this was not planned. They just invited us last minute. 01:00:55.077 --> 01:00:58.057 And Chris, were you up for this at first? 01:00:58.637 --> 01:01:01.377 I mean, I was in full Let's Watch MacGyver mode. 01:01:01.557 --> 01:01:05.117 So, you know, you think about it. You start your day 7 a.m.-ish, 01:01:05.457 --> 01:01:07.197 which means you're really up 5.30. 01:01:07.457 --> 01:01:10.617 And, you know, you're eating breakfast and you're getting out the door at 7 01:01:10.617 --> 01:01:15.437 a.m. And so to get through this, plus all of the, you know, walking around all 01:01:15.437 --> 01:01:20.477 day long and doing interviews, I thought, well, what we'll do is we'll have a super chill evening. 01:01:20.637 --> 01:01:24.057 We'll get like some sandwiches and we'll watch the first episode of MacGyver. 01:01:26.057 --> 01:01:31.837 And to make this possible, we were trying streaming, but the Airbnb connection was a bit spotty. 01:01:32.057 --> 01:01:36.537 So Wes facilitated by quickly standing up a local jellyfin instance. 01:01:39.045 --> 01:01:44.305 I agree. I think lesson learned. And Wes, being a long-time, 01:01:44.565 --> 01:01:48.905 perhaps lifetime MacGyver fan, of course had the means and necessary access 01:01:48.905 --> 01:01:50.245 to get us the MacGyver files. 01:01:50.625 --> 01:01:55.465 So we had ourselves a night planned. And I was pretty committed to this idea. 01:01:55.465 --> 01:01:58.065 You might say it's what carried me through the day, perhaps. 01:01:58.245 --> 01:02:03.205 It was my shining star, my light at the end of the tunnel, to get through the hard day. 01:02:03.345 --> 01:02:07.385 And we, no joke, we get home and we start talking about dinner. 01:02:07.385 --> 01:02:13.065 And, you know, Wes has got the laptop running and we get a text message from Emma from System76. 01:02:14.085 --> 01:02:17.285 And she's like, guys, you got to come out. You got to play laser tag with us. 01:02:17.645 --> 01:02:20.405 And I'm like, no way, not going to happen. 01:02:20.845 --> 01:02:23.905 We just are about to get our lazy on. And then like the next message from Emma 01:02:23.905 --> 01:02:26.485 is like, tell Chris it'll be a lot of fun and he should do it. 01:02:26.745 --> 01:02:28.385 She knew I was going to say something. 01:02:33.165 --> 01:02:37.745 Yeah, yeah. So we're like, all right, let's do this. So we pile up in the rental 01:02:37.745 --> 01:02:40.185 car that we had and we set off to the laser tag place. 01:02:40.625 --> 01:02:43.085 Ironically, we beat them there because they were delayed by an ambulance. 01:02:43.885 --> 01:02:46.845 So we started warming up by playing some air hockey, you know, 01:02:46.965 --> 01:02:50.745 and I had surprisingly good luck at the air hockey for some reason. 01:02:50.985 --> 01:02:54.225 I don't know what my deal was with that. That was about the extent of my luck for the night. 01:02:54.345 --> 01:02:58.725 Then the System 76 crew showed up and Carl and team, most of the team were there, 01:02:59.405 --> 01:03:05.705 no part of the team. And we were kind of concerned because they play laser tag 01:03:05.705 --> 01:03:08.365 on the regular at this massive facility in Denver. 01:03:11.165 --> 01:03:13.545 I had never played until this moment. 01:03:13.885 --> 01:03:16.865 Neither did I. And my wife, Hadiyah, who was with us, had never played. 01:03:17.505 --> 01:03:22.125 So we were total beginners going up against a crew that plays on the regular. 01:03:22.425 --> 01:03:27.245 And it showed in our first round. We didn't do great in our first round. 01:03:27.245 --> 01:03:31.605 And you could tell the System 76 crew thought they had us. 01:03:31.745 --> 01:03:33.905 They were feeling pretty, pretty good. 01:03:34.085 --> 01:03:38.525 And I'll be honest, I was a little nervous. But what I realized as the games 01:03:38.525 --> 01:03:42.125 progressed is the boys just needed to get their laser feet at first. 01:03:42.265 --> 01:03:48.645 And once the preceding games got on, I discovered that my two co-hosts are absolute 01:03:48.645 --> 01:03:53.885 psychopath killers that not only can work as a team, as one killer brain, 01:03:54.005 --> 01:03:55.185 but also work independently. 01:03:56.125 --> 01:03:59.685 And they're absolute murderers. And I'll tell you, quite honestly, audience, 01:03:59.865 --> 01:04:02.705 before we went into this trip, I figured, you know, in a hypothetical situation 01:04:02.705 --> 01:04:05.385 where we're all walking around packing heat and we got into some sort of, 01:04:05.505 --> 01:04:08.505 like, Old West gun showdown, I thought I'd be the one there, 01:04:08.565 --> 01:04:10.605 you know, crouching down in a car shooting while the boys, you know, 01:04:10.665 --> 01:04:11.505 went and got help or something. 01:04:11.605 --> 01:04:14.245 No disparagement, man. But I didn't figure you'd be the ones that would be doing 01:04:14.245 --> 01:04:16.585 the killing. I thought that duty would fall upon me. 01:04:17.245 --> 01:04:20.905 Of course, I've thought of this. However, now that we've played laser tag, 01:04:21.105 --> 01:04:24.445 I realized I'll be the one running for help and you two will be the one doing the murder. 01:04:24.625 --> 01:04:28.125 And I'm totally safe. You got my back. I was surprised. 01:04:28.425 --> 01:04:31.805 And ultimately, it meant that our team came out victorious. 01:04:32.685 --> 01:04:37.205 And we beat the seasoned laser tag System 76 crew. 01:04:39.371 --> 01:04:43.951 You know, going into this, System76 made some big promises to try to lure us 01:04:43.951 --> 01:04:45.931 out. What was some of them? 01:04:46.111 --> 01:04:48.671 I do believe some launch keyboards were promised, right? 01:04:48.751 --> 01:04:53.771 They were for the top performers. And, well, Wes was the number one top performer 01:04:53.771 --> 01:04:57.851 across all rounds that we played. And your dear Brent was number two. 01:04:58.091 --> 01:05:02.951 Killer. I just like laser. And shooting people, apparently. 01:05:04.011 --> 01:05:06.391 And turns out I placed number two. 01:05:06.991 --> 01:05:07.931 Yeah, yeah. 01:05:08.591 --> 01:05:14.071 And the other thing they suggested was the loser would show up on someone's 01:05:14.071 --> 01:05:17.831 podcast and admit that they had lost. 01:05:18.151 --> 01:05:20.231 I don't see them in the mumble room. Do you see them in the mumble room? 01:05:20.291 --> 01:05:21.571 I don't think they're here today. 01:05:21.931 --> 01:05:25.831 That's okay. They're probably still hurting from their loss. 01:05:25.991 --> 01:05:30.151 They're thinking, how did those lazy podcasters beat us, us Denver hikers? 01:05:30.251 --> 01:05:32.731 That's probably what they're thinking. Everybody hikes in Denver, right? 01:05:33.071 --> 01:05:36.711 I think so. It was a lot of fun. And we really enjoyed our time seeing them. 01:05:37.291 --> 01:05:41.911 They also made it to our meetup, which was a blowout success. 01:05:42.091 --> 01:05:44.391 Thank you, everybody. We had well over 100 people make it. 01:05:44.591 --> 01:05:49.291 We told the restaurant there would be 40, and there was a bit more than that. 01:05:51.011 --> 01:05:52.551 And so they quickly opened up 01:05:52.551 --> 01:05:56.371 another wing for us, and we had an overflow room, and it was really nice. 01:05:58.131 --> 01:06:02.791 Anish from Anthropic made it. Carl from System76. Noah from the Ask Noah program. 01:06:03.271 --> 01:06:05.631 Of course, Alex from Self-Hosted made it. 01:06:06.251 --> 01:06:08.651 Olympia Mike was there. Cessna Mike was there. 01:06:10.411 --> 01:06:14.571 Yep. Yep. Hell 9000. Yeah, yeah, I got to meet Hell 9000. It was really great 01:06:14.571 --> 01:06:17.471 to put some names to faces. Those meetups are always really good for that. 01:06:18.371 --> 01:06:21.931 And they said, we're welcome back. Even though we blew it out, they said, don't worry. 01:06:22.751 --> 01:06:25.991 Don't worry. We'll make it work for you next time. So maybe we'll do it there 01:06:25.991 --> 01:06:28.771 again. They were super accommodating, even though we way, way overwhelmed them. 01:06:29.551 --> 01:06:33.651 But we had so much fun. And it went on for hours. And then the next morning, 01:06:33.831 --> 01:06:37.771 we had, you know, conference hard, right? And we've covered all of that. 01:06:37.931 --> 01:06:43.711 But because we're pros at this now, we had scheduled ourselves a little bit of downtime. 01:06:44.051 --> 01:06:46.991 So that way we could enjoy the fact that we were in Pasadena, 01:06:47.111 --> 01:06:48.391 California, while the weather's nice. 01:06:49.291 --> 01:06:53.231 But what do you do? What do you do with your free time? You got your boys there, 01:06:53.391 --> 01:06:55.531 but everywhere you go, it's traffic. 01:06:56.271 --> 01:06:58.251 And the tourist thing would be to go to the beach. 01:06:59.011 --> 01:07:02.371 And our first thought was, well, maybe we could just do something to torture 01:07:02.371 --> 01:07:05.271 PJ, you know, take him to some really touristy thing he hates. 01:07:09.351 --> 01:07:15.231 Yeah. But, you know, we threw a couple ideas at him to just kind of see how 01:07:15.231 --> 01:07:17.451 he'd respond. And he was like, cool with everything. 01:07:17.651 --> 01:07:19.931 He's like everything. He just he just rolled with the punches. 01:07:20.251 --> 01:07:21.451 So that wasn't going to work. 01:07:22.011 --> 01:07:28.131 But since now Jeff, myself, and my wife were all awake, but you boys were still 01:07:28.131 --> 01:07:31.751 sleeping, well, I have to be honest, we started scheming. 01:08:06.300 --> 01:08:10.820 That's right. We loaded Brent up into the car, Brent and Wes, 01:08:11.080 --> 01:08:13.560 and only kind of hinted what we were doing. 01:08:14.060 --> 01:08:18.100 And out of all the things that were available to us, Jeff's mom's house was 01:08:18.100 --> 01:08:19.320 pretty close to our location. 01:08:19.600 --> 01:08:23.700 So we thought, let's go down there. We know that Jeff's had this van parked 01:08:23.700 --> 01:08:28.680 there that he's been trying to get Brent to buy for ages, but we don't truly know the state of it. 01:08:28.840 --> 01:08:31.340 We think it's in good condition, but it'd be really good to get our eyes on 01:08:31.340 --> 01:08:35.800 it. And then, hey, wouldn't it be fun if we just for a couple of hours tried 01:08:35.800 --> 01:08:39.600 to get this bus, which is a van, parked there for six years, 01:08:39.640 --> 01:08:42.700 if we could get this thing running again? Wouldn't that just be a fun adventure? 01:08:44.540 --> 01:08:47.460 And sure enough, as we're pulling up, we're like, hey, Brent, 01:08:47.660 --> 01:08:50.240 look at this van. Brent, check this van out. 01:08:52.740 --> 01:08:56.320 I was so clueless at that point. Because I, you know, how this typically goes 01:08:56.320 --> 01:08:58.480 when we get together is we just have some free time. 01:08:58.640 --> 01:09:00.840 Someone makes some crazy decision about where we go. 01:09:01.820 --> 01:09:04.980 And then I just, I don't know, Wes, you and I are pretty agreeable. 01:09:05.100 --> 01:09:07.620 We just tag along for whatever crazy adventure is going to happen. 01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:13.100 And I had zero until the moment we pulled up to this thing. Zero idea this is what we were going to do. 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:19.400 And then it all just hit me. Hole lay. This is the van that Jeff's been sending 01:09:19.400 --> 01:09:23.560 me photos about for the last two years, trying to convince me to take this thing 01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:25.800 off his grandfather's hands out of the driveway. 01:09:27.120 --> 01:09:31.360 And this, I mean, Chris, this is your fault. I'm completely blaming you because 01:09:31.360 --> 01:09:34.500 for years now you've been saying, hey, Brent, you know what you should do? 01:09:34.500 --> 01:09:38.060 I can't do it because I got kids and a big, huge rake, but I'm going to live 01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:39.320 vicariously through you. 01:09:39.420 --> 01:09:43.040 And you should buy this little, I don't know, a van or some kind of camper of 01:09:43.040 --> 01:09:46.420 some sort and just tour around the continent just on your own time. 01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:49.840 And so this has been years in the making. You've been razzing me about this. 01:09:49.940 --> 01:09:54.660 And like some of the first bang bus songs are just like continuing that trend 01:09:54.660 --> 01:09:57.980 of just convincing Brent he should live a different lifestyle. 01:09:58.200 --> 01:10:03.260 And sure enough, when we pulled up, it was like, oh, it's on. It is on. 01:10:03.260 --> 01:10:10.600 Yeah, what we saw was a 1990s Dodge B250 camper van built in Canada and modified 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:14.260 into a camper van in Canada, interestingly enough. 01:10:14.680 --> 01:10:18.400 And it had been sitting, so it's rusted, but it had real potential. 01:10:18.460 --> 01:10:21.300 And we are kind of like the Avengers team. 01:10:21.460 --> 01:10:23.800 We came together. Wes did the audio recording. 01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:27.480 Brent and I started going through the RV features of the van. 01:10:27.480 --> 01:10:32.280 And we kind of quickly came to realization that, you know, it wouldn't be too 01:10:32.280 --> 01:10:33.520 hard to see if this thing's functional. 01:10:33.800 --> 01:10:37.520 And so PJ came in clutch because we needed a little electrical work. 01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:40.460 Since the thing had sat for five or six years, the battery was beyond dead. 01:10:40.540 --> 01:10:41.940 We couldn't jump it. We couldn't charge it. 01:10:42.836 --> 01:10:47.696 But we needed to know if the motor turned. And so Jeff breaks out the old drone battery. 01:10:47.816 --> 01:10:52.236 I mean, I'm talking like something that fits in the palm of your hand and starts wiring it up to the van. 01:10:52.996 --> 01:10:54.376 This is what we've been waiting for. What do you want to do, 01:10:54.536 --> 01:10:58.676 Wanda? Bubble, bubble, worries. Go ahead. Okay, turning on. Do it. 01:10:59.516 --> 01:11:01.376 Crank it. That's way more power. Crank it. 01:11:02.636 --> 01:11:05.236 There we go, it's smoking, but we got it. Yeah. Okay, kill it, 01:11:05.276 --> 01:11:06.016 Brent, kill it. We're good. 01:11:06.556 --> 01:11:10.156 So I think we're looking, it's dead now, Brent. I think we're looking at a voltage 01:11:10.156 --> 01:11:12.396 issue. Yeah, it's battery, battery's dead. But it turned, though. Yeah. 01:11:12.796 --> 01:11:15.636 Yeah, so the starters not get enough power. That's cool. That's cool. 01:11:15.636 --> 01:11:17.996 It's already warm. Just a little bit. Dude, it was smoking, yeah. 01:11:18.116 --> 01:11:20.256 Well, that's the wire that, yeah. 01:11:21.556 --> 01:11:25.296 That's all we needed to really find out for sure. Thank you. 01:11:25.596 --> 01:11:28.776 Yeah, that's great. That's good news. So the starter's in perfect condition 01:11:28.776 --> 01:11:29.856 if we can get enough voltage to it. 01:11:31.616 --> 01:11:34.156 So we could run to one of the auto stores and pick up a battery. 01:11:34.896 --> 01:11:40.456 And we did just that. Because the thing is, it was like in pristine condition 01:11:40.456 --> 01:11:43.676 under the hood. The oil, it was just changed before it was parked. 01:11:46.696 --> 01:11:50.416 Brand new transmission fluid. Brand new transmission fluid in there. 01:11:50.516 --> 01:11:53.396 And so we knew it now would turn. 01:11:53.656 --> 01:11:55.916 And I think PJ was like, oh, we could just call it good there. 01:11:56.016 --> 01:11:59.896 And I'm like, now that we know, let's go get a battery. And so sure enough, we load up in the rental. 01:12:00.236 --> 01:12:04.896 We go get ourselves a $180 California battery because this thing's big old V8 01:12:04.896 --> 01:12:08.696 with a starter that just requires a ridiculous amount of power. 01:12:09.776 --> 01:12:14.736 And we put a little bit of starter juice right down into the mouth of the engine, 01:12:15.136 --> 01:12:18.536 right into the carburetor, so that way it's got some fresh juice to start with. 01:12:19.256 --> 01:12:21.716 And we roll the dice to see if it starts. 01:12:21.976 --> 01:12:23.876 What do I need? We're going to crank it. You ready? Yeah, crank it. 01:12:24.096 --> 01:12:25.436 What do you need me for? I'm just letting you know. 01:12:29.112 --> 01:12:32.272 It's good. Are you ready, Brent? A bit airy in here, Mike. Fuck up. 01:12:33.032 --> 01:12:35.972 Yeah, you're gonna get a lot of dirt. If it turns, it's gonna blow a lot. 01:12:37.132 --> 01:12:41.232 The doghouse is open inside, so it's right at Brent's legs. Like, 01:12:41.332 --> 01:12:44.672 right at his knees. We can put it back on. Are we ready? Yeah, we're ready. 01:12:47.752 --> 01:12:49.052 Here we go. Sounds good. 01:12:51.952 --> 01:12:53.312 Yes! Yes! 01:12:55.472 --> 01:12:59.152 Give him some gas, but give him a little gas. Yeah! 01:13:01.032 --> 01:13:03.552 Yeah, keep it going because we're going to start getting the shit gas now. 01:13:05.232 --> 01:13:07.412 Yeah, it's good. It's good. Breathing. 01:13:09.832 --> 01:13:10.192 Woohoo! 01:13:12.652 --> 01:13:15.452 I did get a little dirty because it blew all over me because, 01:13:15.452 --> 01:13:18.652 like, the engine's in the cab, which makes no sense to me. Yeah, 01:13:18.812 --> 01:13:19.932 well, that's why it's got a doghouse. 01:13:20.792 --> 01:13:23.012 It's sweet. You can just touch it while you're driving down the road. 01:13:23.232 --> 01:13:24.952 Well, yeah, you got to go to the duct and everything. 01:13:25.712 --> 01:13:29.752 You want to go okay we're starting to get a little belt squeak but not bad yeah 01:13:29.752 --> 01:13:33.392 well yeah right like i mean star 01:13:33.392 --> 01:13:36.232 trek they got an engine room you just got your engine room in your cab. 01:13:36.232 --> 01:13:40.452 Yeah right there in the cockpit it's actually pretty handy so the whole story 01:13:40.452 --> 01:13:43.932 is in this week's episode of the launch and there's a lot more to it weekly 01:13:43.932 --> 01:13:48.932 launch.rocks brent joins angela and i and we go into the full story but long 01:13:48.932 --> 01:13:53.752 story short because it ran so good and it can it actually smoothed out as it continued to run, 01:13:53.932 --> 01:13:59.552 and the engine only has 60,000 miles on it, Brent decided to pull the trigger and pick it up. 01:14:01.178 --> 01:14:07.178 So, uh, now we have to actually get back down there and get the thing on the road. 01:14:07.638 --> 01:14:09.618 Tires are in rough shape. So it's going to need new tires. 01:14:10.138 --> 01:14:14.618 You know, it's, it's probably going to get about somewhere between 10 and 15 miles per gallon. 01:14:15.158 --> 01:14:18.198 It's got to get, you know, title and licensed. It's got a few repairs. 01:14:18.358 --> 01:14:21.818 Brent's going to have some woodwork to do, but the bones are in really good shape, Brentley. 01:14:22.578 --> 01:14:27.658 This is crazy. This is not what I had on my list. 01:14:27.658 --> 01:14:32.018 You know my agenda for going to scale planet nix and like hanging out with you guys, 01:14:32.518 --> 01:14:35.518 i didn't expect to come back with like a new lifestyle 01:14:35.518 --> 01:14:38.738 and a new set of wheels but i gotta 01:14:38.738 --> 01:14:41.658 say that was super fun to work on this thing with you guys we 01:14:41.658 --> 01:14:46.058 had a great time uh wes thank you for sneaky grabbing a bunch of audio it's 01:14:46.058 --> 01:14:50.298 reliving that moment when it just first started up is like yeah that's gonna 01:14:50.298 --> 01:14:56.558 stick with me for a while but chris you and i have well i think a big project 01:14:56.558 --> 01:15:00.698 coming up where we're going to head back down and really get this thing going, 01:15:00.878 --> 01:15:04.858 put new tires on it and make sure it actually rolls because we didn't actually 01:15:04.858 --> 01:15:10.178 get the chance to try that part of it and somehow get this thing back up to Canada. 01:15:10.358 --> 01:15:14.378 And Jeff's going to join us too. So early May, is that what we decided? 01:15:14.718 --> 01:15:19.118 May 1st, I booked the trip and we're going to fly down to LAX. 01:15:19.478 --> 01:15:21.978 And then with Jeff's help, we're going to get back to his mom's house. 01:15:22.418 --> 01:15:25.898 And we're going to try to get this thing on the road as fast and feasible as 01:15:25.898 --> 01:15:30.338 possible and we're going to be doing shows, we're going to be doing LUP and 01:15:30.338 --> 01:15:32.378 other shows from the road, from the van, 01:15:34.578 --> 01:15:38.658 which is going to be interesting because the interior needs some work It may or may not work out. 01:15:38.658 --> 01:15:39.678 We're going to find a. 01:15:44.047 --> 01:15:47.247 Well, and you, you know, you get it. Basically, if the bones are in good shape, 01:15:47.327 --> 01:15:48.347 the other stuff we can figure out. 01:15:48.487 --> 01:15:52.527 So our thinking is if we can get it from L.A. 01:15:52.607 --> 01:15:57.207 To Sacramento, where we'll have Jeff chasing us, then it's likely we have a 01:15:57.207 --> 01:16:01.887 pretty good shot, at least a 50 percent shot of getting from Sacramento back up to Seattle. 01:16:02.527 --> 01:16:06.927 We shall see. And we will not have it after we leave Jeff's house in Sacramento. 01:16:06.927 --> 01:16:10.327 We will have no chase car. So we will be just on our own and we'll have to be 01:16:10.327 --> 01:16:15.567 stopping and taking time to do episodes and shows from the van. It's going to be wild. 01:16:16.387 --> 01:16:19.367 And of course, we could always use the help and support because not only was 01:16:19.367 --> 01:16:23.607 this episode incredibly expensive to produce, but this wild trip is going to be crazy. 01:16:23.867 --> 01:16:27.287 So if you'd like to help the boost, boost in with some BangBus support. 01:16:27.887 --> 01:16:31.867 I got a specific clip for those of you who boost in. We have. 01:16:35.027 --> 01:16:36.647 And another BangBus boost clip. 01:16:40.107 --> 01:16:41.387 Yeah that's right so, 01:16:43.687 --> 01:16:47.027 yeah we're looking forward to it i think it's going to be i think it's going to be really great, 01:16:47.567 --> 01:16:50.287 and uh we'll have details on all of that in the future and 01:16:50.287 --> 01:16:59.527 you'll know you'll know when we're on the road the van's right there it's gonna 01:16:59.527 --> 01:17:02.827 be great friend will be giving out tours and talking about the wood he rebuilt 01:17:02.827 --> 01:17:08.307 and where the batteries are at and you know we're pulling people in there Oh, yeah. 01:17:08.467 --> 01:17:11.287 Oh, yeah. And you know we're stuffing as much Linux into this thing as possible. 01:17:11.387 --> 01:17:13.147 Maybe we build in a Linux Reaper system. 01:17:13.247 --> 01:17:15.687 A Home Assistant system is just absolutely going to happen, right, 01:17:15.747 --> 01:17:17.927 Brent? Full Linux in your bag. 01:17:17.927 --> 01:17:19.927 Yeah. Bring it on. Bring it on. 01:17:19.927 --> 01:17:20.287 All right. 01:17:23.527 --> 01:17:27.907 We do have some boosts to get into that help make this episode possible. 01:17:27.907 --> 01:17:31.427 And our baller booster this week is The Dude Abides. 01:17:34.687 --> 01:17:38.907 Coming in with a fantastic 100,000 sets! 01:17:50.015 --> 01:17:53.555 The Dude Abide writes, welcome back. Thank you, dude. 01:17:53.755 --> 01:17:57.555 Really appreciate that. That means more than ever this week. 01:17:57.715 --> 01:18:00.675 That is a great time for a baller boost like that. Thank you very much. 01:18:01.095 --> 01:18:06.275 Appreciate that. And you are our top supporter for episode 606. 01:18:13.155 --> 01:18:15.335 Also a great boost. That's cool. 01:18:27.575 --> 01:18:30.735 Oh, all subsequent kernels... 01:18:35.115 --> 01:18:37.395 I mean, it feels like we're getting there with the six series. 01:18:37.635 --> 01:18:40.175 You know how Linus gets once the number starts getting too high. 01:18:40.255 --> 01:18:41.175 So it could be happening. 01:18:41.635 --> 01:18:44.695 Would he go with seven forever? Well, he could if he was Linus for a day. 01:19:26.035 --> 01:19:30.875 Thank you and i think that's a it's a good uh play you're you're kind of like hedging with ladybird, 01:19:34.575 --> 01:19:35.255 oh good, 01:19:38.275 --> 01:19:42.855 yeah yeah that's a great set of boost adversaries thank you very much and uh 01:19:42.855 --> 01:19:46.035 i agree with you thanks for the boost now. 01:19:46.035 --> 01:19:51.495 Andrew sent in two boosts the first one here 29,402 sats. 01:19:53.415 --> 01:19:58.755 Short time, first time, but you have a new Linux convert. Windows hardware requirements got me good. 01:19:59.255 --> 01:20:04.035 And now Nexus giving me quite a head spin, but wow, is it an awesome one. 01:20:04.535 --> 01:20:08.115 Thanks for all the good work and cheers to many more invaluable episodes. 01:20:08.435 --> 01:20:11.915 P.S. Get the map, Wes, because this is a zip code boost. 01:20:14.515 --> 01:20:15.895 Did you bring the map, Wes? 01:20:19.075 --> 01:20:19.715 Does. 01:20:19.715 --> 01:20:21.475 Have extra stains I noticed. 01:20:24.055 --> 01:20:28.775 First time booster and a Linux convert Andrew you're killing it love it it's 01:20:28.775 --> 01:20:31.575 good to hear alright Wes so we gotta convert this, 01:20:39.020 --> 01:20:43.500 Ideally with Star Trek. Oh, there you go. I see Andrew also liked the deep dive, 01:20:43.500 --> 01:20:45.980 but he says we don't have to overdo it. I think that's good feedback. Thank you. 01:20:46.680 --> 01:20:49.280 All right. Where's he at, Wes? Where's he at? Charleston, South Carolina. 01:20:49.580 --> 01:20:51.940 Hey, I want to go there sometime. 01:20:52.160 --> 01:20:54.820 I would love to do a North Carolina, South Carolina thing. 01:20:57.420 --> 01:21:01.080 Yeah. Does that mean there's vinegar in the meetup? Why not? Okay. All right. 01:21:01.460 --> 01:21:04.420 Hey, speaking of somebody we got to see at Planet Nix and scale, 01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:11.960 it is Gene Bean, and He comes in with 36,510 sats. That's right. 01:21:14.480 --> 01:21:19.720 He says, if you're going to use Gentoo, don't cut corners. Oh, gosh, we got him going. 01:21:20.260 --> 01:21:24.620 Just as Nick's BSD wasn't free BSD, sidestepping what makes Gentoo unique defeats its purpose. 01:21:24.900 --> 01:21:28.500 The point of a Gentoo challenge is to learn about the stuff other distros hide. 01:21:29.040 --> 01:21:32.500 That knowledge is incredibly helpful when switching back to any mainstream distro. 01:21:32.740 --> 01:21:34.680 I agree. I can't argue with that. I agree. 01:21:35.180 --> 01:21:38.000 I think he's right about that. He did love the rust coverage in the kernel. 01:21:38.660 --> 01:21:41.980 And he asked, we asked if people are liking the deep dives. He said he enjoyed 01:21:41.980 --> 01:21:45.520 the EBPF deep dive. I wouldn't want it every episode, but once a month, maybe a quarter. 01:21:46.240 --> 01:21:48.720 This particular one was well done. I really enjoyed it. Keep up the good work. 01:21:49.160 --> 01:21:51.140 Okay. I think that's where we're starting to see a theme. It's like, 01:21:51.180 --> 01:21:53.140 yeah, from time to time, don't mind those deep dives. 01:21:53.560 --> 01:21:57.540 Just got to buckle up. Right. And then he wraps it up with Brent, Chris, and Wes. 01:21:58.360 --> 01:22:02.160 This, which was 25,400 sats, should cover the beer or cider that I wanted to 01:22:02.160 --> 01:22:05.520 get each of you during scale. as a thanks for all you do to keep this community informed. 01:22:05.720 --> 01:22:08.520 It was great getting to chat with you all while we were there, 01:22:08.560 --> 01:22:10.800 and I'm seriously looking forward to hearing your coverage of the event. 01:22:11.440 --> 01:22:15.700 Well, Jade, being having lunch with you was a highlight of our event, so it was nice to see you. 01:22:26.684 --> 01:22:29.344 Hey, thank you. I think we will. 01:22:31.644 --> 01:22:35.804 Well, flyover friend sent in a McRove ducks. 01:22:38.624 --> 01:22:45.944 JB Bang Bus, huh? Well, okay, go ahead and earmark this boost to help fund the interior cameras. 01:22:46.464 --> 01:22:48.484 I'll watch, but I'll be weird. 01:22:49.044 --> 01:22:52.664 Yeah, I like over flyover. I'm thinking cameras for sure. I mean, 01:22:52.724 --> 01:22:54.064 on the outside. I don't know about the inside. 01:23:00.484 --> 01:23:03.464 That's true oh oh god you're right okay here we go, 01:23:07.024 --> 01:23:12.404 yeah you know and uh i like some people go to interesting places with the name 01:23:12.404 --> 01:23:17.084 but of course the real story behind the name of the bang bus is that we just like alliteration a lot, 01:23:24.584 --> 01:23:29.264 that's a good point that's a good point All right. Sire comes in with 20,000 sats. 01:23:31.644 --> 01:23:35.204 Beer boost. Sorry, I couldn't do the benchmarks on FreeBSD. Okay. 01:23:35.364 --> 01:23:38.764 I'm keeping an eye on the release notes, though, to see when my Goopoo will become supported. 01:23:39.724 --> 01:23:41.644 Totally fair, Sire. That seems totally fair. 01:23:46.768 --> 01:23:49.708 And ZackAttack came in with another 20,000 sets. 01:23:53.148 --> 01:23:56.028 It has been too long since I boosted in. 01:23:56.168 --> 01:24:00.068 I remember you guys talked about note-taking apps, and I recently switched from 01:24:00.068 --> 01:24:04.808 Obsidian with SyncThing to Joplin with Tailscale and Nextcloud. 01:24:05.248 --> 01:24:10.808 While I don't like the way they format files, I do like how it handles syncing across devices. 01:24:11.328 --> 01:24:17.468 Made onboarding laptops that I tend to wipe and reinstall the OS on every quarter a lot easier. 01:24:18.088 --> 01:24:21.028 Also, on the Rust in the kernel coverage, I like hearing it. 01:24:21.188 --> 01:24:25.908 I can tell you guys spend a lot of time looking into the topics and give a good fair take on it. 01:24:26.028 --> 01:24:29.828 Would be curious on what you guys think about the latest Firefox controversy, 01:24:30.528 --> 01:24:33.588 and if it's going to cause you to jump web browsers. 01:24:34.328 --> 01:24:37.048 Also, big shout out to everyone from Michigan. 01:24:38.628 --> 01:24:43.728 Shout out Michigan! again we did talk a little firefox in our live stream members 01:24:43.728 --> 01:24:47.148 show today uh and uh i think we're gonna keep watching it and we'll probably 01:24:47.148 --> 01:24:48.988 do further coverage in the show it's a good question, 01:24:51.068 --> 01:24:54.388 that's true that is true thank you zach attack good to hear from you and it's 01:24:54.388 --> 01:25:00.268 great to hear from shy fox who comes in with 20 000 sets i'm on the wrong coast 01:25:00.268 --> 01:25:04.828 to join y'all so instead here's to a good time p.s my first computer was a pentium 01:25:04.828 --> 01:25:08.048 one that we won in a department store raffle, 01:25:08.868 --> 01:25:09.968 Oh, what an era. 01:25:11.028 --> 01:25:15.588 I wonder if that one had a fan on it. Some of the Pentiums that first shipped 01:25:15.588 --> 01:25:17.908 didn't have fans, even though they needed them. 01:25:18.168 --> 01:25:20.728 And so if you got a really early Pentium 1 system, you might have, 01:25:20.988 --> 01:25:24.308 because you have to understand the 486 and 386 systems, while some of them started 01:25:24.308 --> 01:25:27.628 having cooling, till the very end of the 486 one, they're still selling some 01:25:27.628 --> 01:25:30.468 of them without active cooling. If you can believe a CPU. 01:25:31.768 --> 01:25:34.908 But the Pentium 1s was a little bit tougher. That's a great boost. 01:25:35.268 --> 01:25:37.088 Thank you, Shy Fox. Good to hear from you. 01:25:53.847 --> 01:25:56.647 Thank you, Tomato. We did. Nice to hear from you. 01:25:57.527 --> 01:26:00.307 Amitra Hat sent in 4,500 sats. 01:26:02.447 --> 01:26:05.667 Longtime listener, core contributor, and first-time booster. 01:26:06.047 --> 01:26:08.467 Hey! Thank you on both accounts. 01:26:08.707 --> 01:26:15.327 Just wanted to say the eBPF deep dive was excellent, and I'd like to hear more of those such episodes. 01:26:15.927 --> 01:26:16.627 All right. 01:26:20.507 --> 01:26:24.547 That's great. This is really good feedback. The boys can attest, 01:26:24.727 --> 01:26:28.287 before we started getting these messages, I was telling them maybe we don't do that again. 01:26:29.307 --> 01:26:34.507 And I was like, oh, this is not looking good. But so far, now that we've actually 01:26:34.507 --> 01:26:36.567 collected the messages and time has come in and they've rolled in, 01:26:36.727 --> 01:26:40.567 I'm feeling like, yeah, we'll do it at a certain cadence, but we'll do it from time to time. 01:26:41.287 --> 01:26:42.947 Thank you also for the membership support. 01:26:44.687 --> 01:26:48.247 Night62 came in with 12,100 sats. 01:26:49.187 --> 01:26:52.127 First off, I love the deep dive episodes. Please keep them coming. 01:26:52.127 --> 01:26:54.227 All right, it's another vote for a deep dive, boys. 01:26:58.307 --> 01:27:01.267 But I can understand they may not appeal to everyone. Second, 01:27:01.447 --> 01:27:05.007 I just got back from Scale22x, which was awesome, primarily because the really 01:27:05.007 --> 01:27:08.607 great people I met and got to talk with, many of which were from the JB community. 01:27:08.847 --> 01:27:12.507 Shout out to producer Jeff, tech dev, Eric Kenji, Carl George, 01:27:12.767 --> 01:27:16.487 Kyle from Bazite, and Noel from UBlue and Aurora. 01:27:16.667 --> 01:27:19.507 It was also great to meet and hang with the JB crew, Chris, Hadea, 01:27:19.607 --> 01:27:23.007 Brent, Wes, and Alex. Thank you all for making my first scale so great. 01:27:24.147 --> 01:27:25.027 That's so sweet. 01:27:25.587 --> 01:27:28.307 And I'm glad you got a chance to say hi to folks. That's always what, 01:27:28.487 --> 01:27:32.807 you know, it can be a little, I know, nerve-wracking your first time to actually say hi. 01:27:33.067 --> 01:27:36.867 But once you start doing it, it's smooth. And people there are so easy to talk 01:27:36.867 --> 01:27:38.047 to. You'll be surprised. 01:27:38.327 --> 01:27:40.827 That's all what makes the meetup magic. I agree. I agree. 01:28:03.267 --> 01:28:07.507 You're of the two-y you're of the two-y huh love it, 01:28:14.628 --> 01:28:18.448 Okay, so that right there, it's funny he said that, because before you read 01:28:18.448 --> 01:28:21.888 that sentence, I was auto-completing in my head. The benchmark should be, 01:28:21.968 --> 01:28:25.448 is it better than a web app? That should be the benchmark. 01:28:26.828 --> 01:28:30.048 Yeah. I'm going to write that down. We'll talk about it after the show. 01:28:30.328 --> 01:28:34.208 A TUI challenge could be fun. I'd be probably more inclined to do it, 01:28:34.288 --> 01:28:35.008 if folks in the audience. 01:28:35.448 --> 01:28:38.388 That's the challenges we like the most, is when you guys also do some of them 01:28:38.388 --> 01:28:39.788 with us. You could also... 01:28:44.788 --> 01:28:46.748 Yeah, something we can start looking at to see if it's feasible. 01:28:48.888 --> 01:28:52.168 It's a great boost. We're going to write it down and talk about it. Thank you, Bean. 01:28:53.148 --> 01:28:57.168 DistroStrew boosted in what looks like a binary boost here, 10,101. 01:28:59.328 --> 01:29:03.168 Scale was great. I had been struggling with some Nix configs around Thunderbird, 01:29:03.368 --> 01:29:06.488 and I figured chatting with the Nix geniuses would set me right. 01:29:07.128 --> 01:29:12.288 They were also a little stumped, so I spent an hour with the engineer at the Thunderbird booth. 01:29:12.468 --> 01:29:16.988 Long story short, I learned a lot. filed issues on both projects, and a pull request. 01:29:17.048 --> 01:29:21.228 I could not make the JB meetup, but it was certainly nice to see you all. 01:29:21.828 --> 01:29:25.928 That sounds like a great trip experience. Little hands-on, little FaceTime, 01:29:26.388 --> 01:29:27.748 and working across projects. 01:29:27.848 --> 01:29:29.528 I heard a few other folks that did that too. I had one problem, 01:29:29.588 --> 01:29:31.348 I went to this booth, and I went and talked to people at the other booth. 01:29:31.748 --> 01:29:34.088 Might not have solved your problem that day, but got the channels opened. 01:29:37.408 --> 01:29:41.828 Yeah. Thank you for the boost. Routed Mood comes in with 18,000 two sets. 01:29:43.108 --> 01:29:46.608 Just wanted to say, I enjoyed the technical deep dive at episode 605, 01:29:46.888 --> 01:29:49.728 Live Long and Prosper. Well, thank you, sir. It's good to hear from you, 01:29:49.788 --> 01:29:50.608 and you're doing a great job. 01:29:52.288 --> 01:29:55.648 Can I just say, I think you guys are all trolling me with this deep dive stuff. 01:29:55.948 --> 01:30:02.108 I mean, you just came out with that clip, Chris, and you know how much I hate the deep dive thing. 01:30:02.248 --> 01:30:04.328 You think it's me? You think it's me? 01:30:04.648 --> 01:30:08.728 I think you're all colluding. You're all colluding to just get me to... 01:30:12.328 --> 01:30:13.748 Yep. Still hate it. 01:30:44.115 --> 01:30:47.775 That is awesome. Thank you. That's the idea, and we really appreciate it, 01:30:47.815 --> 01:30:49.835 especially this week. Thank you. 01:30:50.375 --> 01:30:52.395 Thank you very much, WH. Nice to hear from you. 01:30:52.695 --> 01:30:56.835 We also have a boost here from Magnolia Mayhem, another Spaceballs boost. 01:31:03.555 --> 01:31:05.975 No message on this one, just a bunch of plaid. 01:31:06.475 --> 01:31:09.595 Well, that's great. Thank you for the value. Thank you, everybody who boosted. 01:31:09.595 --> 01:31:12.175 We got a bunch below the 2,000-sat cutoff for on-air. 01:31:13.015 --> 01:31:15.015 Oh, we got one? We want to pull one up? Yeah. All right. 01:31:21.755 --> 01:31:23.055 All right, you got it, buddy. 01:31:27.255 --> 01:31:28.275 I hate you all. 01:31:29.535 --> 01:31:35.335 Thank you, everybody who supported episode 606. We had 48 of you stream those 01:31:35.335 --> 01:31:38.095 sats as you listened, and collectively, you did a nice lift there. 01:31:38.215 --> 01:31:44.335 You stacked 102,434 sats. When you combine that with everybody who boosted live 01:31:44.335 --> 01:31:52.075 or boosted last week's episode, we stacked a pretty handsome collective 564,906 sats. 01:31:57.415 --> 01:32:01.235 We really appreciate it. Production costs were extremely high for this episode, 01:32:01.415 --> 01:32:03.395 but we really gained a lot of great insights. 01:32:03.535 --> 01:32:05.715 It's going to help inform coverage for years to come. 01:32:05.955 --> 01:32:08.735 Thank you, everybody who supports the show directly with a boost. 01:32:08.735 --> 01:32:11.855 It's a peer-to-peer network all using open-source technology. 01:32:12.095 --> 01:32:16.075 Your message goes directly to us, and we collate it and put it into our show notes. 01:32:16.435 --> 01:32:19.995 You can get SaaS from River, from Strike, from Bitcoin Well, 01:32:20.035 --> 01:32:22.235 and then boost them into the show. We really appreciate it. It's a great way 01:32:22.235 --> 01:32:23.995 to support each individual production. 01:32:24.395 --> 01:32:27.615 Or you can set your support on Autopilot by becoming a member, 01:32:27.835 --> 01:32:28.835 one of our core contributors. 01:32:29.355 --> 01:32:33.655 And we have a link for that at linuxunplugged.com. And big shout-out to our 01:32:33.655 --> 01:32:38.855 members. you've got a hulk of a member special show for you in the bootleg this week. 01:32:38.975 --> 01:32:41.455 We hope you enjoy it. It's a big boy. 01:32:44.447 --> 01:32:46.487 Now, our picks this week were inspired 01:32:46.487 --> 01:32:50.507 by our stay at the Airbnb because I thought I was being real clever. 01:32:51.227 --> 01:32:55.067 And this is the first time I've ever done this. I packed an Apple TV. 01:32:55.467 --> 01:32:58.247 We have a spare one here. Well, it's not spare. It's one that's hooked up here 01:32:58.247 --> 01:33:01.367 at the studio that's used lightly. When people are over or whatever it might 01:33:01.367 --> 01:33:02.827 be, we fire up the old Apple TV. 01:33:03.107 --> 01:33:07.067 And it's handy because it's signed into my stuff, like my Jellyfin server and 01:33:07.067 --> 01:33:11.607 my friend's Plex servers. And it's also on my tail net. So it gets access to everything. 01:33:11.767 --> 01:33:15.527 So I thought, hey, I'll be a smart guy. and I'll just bring the old Apple TV 01:33:15.527 --> 01:33:19.467 because I know we're going to be watching Star Trek or whatever and it'll make it real easy. 01:33:19.627 --> 01:33:22.407 We'll plug it in the HDMI of the Airbnb and we're good. 01:33:23.347 --> 01:33:27.427 Well, I did just that, but of course, the genius that I am, I forgot the remote. 01:33:28.127 --> 01:33:31.887 And we show up at the Airbnb, I'm like, oh, no big deal, we'll use a Wi-Fi app. 01:33:32.067 --> 01:33:35.467 Well, it has to be on the Wi-Fi. So then we had to make a quick, 01:33:35.547 --> 01:33:40.647 quick move and Brent suggested that I set up my phone to turn on the hotspot 01:33:40.647 --> 01:33:42.047 and name it my home Wi-Fi. 01:33:42.587 --> 01:33:44.667 The Apple TV joined that, and then we were able to control it and get on the 01:33:44.667 --> 01:33:49.227 Airbnb Wi-Fi. But then we had the actual problem of how the hell do you control 01:33:49.227 --> 01:33:53.227 an Apple TV when you don't have their little Apple TV remote and you don't have an iPhone? 01:33:53.567 --> 01:33:59.607 And you found a Python library for Apple TV and AirPlay devices that lets you 01:33:59.607 --> 01:34:05.207 control things that are iOS TV 15 and tvOS 15 and later. 01:34:05.467 --> 01:34:09.007 It also supports apparently audio streaming via AirPlay to receivers like the 01:34:09.007 --> 01:34:10.307 HomePod and the Airport Express. 01:34:16.127 --> 01:34:20.547 Of course. And so you pulled that down, and you were using that sometimes to 01:34:20.547 --> 01:34:22.907 control the Apple TV. Yeah, we all know. 01:34:42.147 --> 01:34:43.367 Ultimately, there's a couple of. 01:34:54.427 --> 01:34:57.167 Yeah. You remember whatever? Yeah. So, Pi ATV. 01:35:08.627 --> 01:35:12.207 Wow. Yeah, in like the system tray area. Okay, okay. I don't, 01:35:18.627 --> 01:35:18.647 Yeah. 01:35:31.391 --> 01:35:35.571 It might work. Yeah. It may work. Yeah. If anybody has any other great ways 01:35:35.571 --> 01:35:41.351 to control an Apple TV from Linux or Android that aren't loaded with ads or scans, I'd love to know. 01:35:41.551 --> 01:35:44.011 Because that was like navigating a minefield in the Play Store. 01:35:46.291 --> 01:35:49.751 Yes. Right. Thank you, Wes. Thank you. We try to remember to mention that. 01:35:50.731 --> 01:35:54.151 We'll have a link to both of those in the show notes. Of course, 01:35:54.211 --> 01:35:56.311 that's at linuxunplugged.com slash 606. 01:35:56.751 --> 01:36:00.291 Also, just again, a big thank you to Phlox for getting us out to Planet Nix 01:36:00.291 --> 01:36:02.531 and scale. We had a great time. 01:36:02.771 --> 01:36:06.651 So many stories to continue to share and good connections we made too. 01:36:07.071 --> 01:36:10.171 And I'm looking forward to next year already. And don't forget, 01:36:10.331 --> 01:36:13.771 you can boost in to support Brent's Bang Bus efforts if you'd like, 01:36:13.851 --> 01:36:18.091 but also your feedback on event coverage like this, because these are also tricky 01:36:18.091 --> 01:36:20.651 episodes, sort of like the deep dives. They don't apply to everybody. 01:36:20.951 --> 01:36:24.091 So we try to frame the coverage in a way that even if you're not a Daily Nix 01:36:24.091 --> 01:36:25.651 user, you might still find informative. 01:36:25.911 --> 01:36:29.631 And I'd love to know if we hit that note. So you can send us a boost with that 01:36:29.631 --> 01:36:32.251 or go to linuxunplugged.com slash contact. 01:36:32.571 --> 01:36:36.631 And I also invite you to join us live. Make it a Linux Tuesday on a Sunday. 01:36:36.851 --> 01:36:41.151 Join us at noon. Nope. We now do it at 10 a.m. Pacific, which is noon Eastern. 01:36:44.771 --> 01:36:48.551 Except for when we change it. But then we like to lock it in. 01:36:48.671 --> 01:36:51.831 And if you just have a podcasting 2.0 app, you don't have to worry. 01:36:51.971 --> 01:36:54.611 We try to mark it pending about 24 hours or so beforehand. 01:36:54.931 --> 01:36:58.211 And we go live. Boom. Boom. It's just live right there in the app. 01:37:01.931 --> 01:37:04.871 Yeah we do have time zones at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash 01:37:04.871 --> 01:37:07.691 calendar also we have our mumble and matrix 01:37:07.691 --> 01:37:11.471 info there we'd love to have you join us in those places as well but that's 01:37:11.471 --> 01:37:14.291 really all you need to know other than the links which i already told you about 01:37:14.291 --> 01:37:19.711 at uh unplugged.com slash 606 you know with the linux in front of it i think 01:37:19.711 --> 01:37:22.191 that's it for us hope you enjoyed the episode thank you so much for joining 01:37:22.191 --> 01:37:25.771 us on this week's episode we'll see you next tuesday as in sunday.
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