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Ubuntu's Rusty Roadmap

Mar 23, 2025
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Canonical's VP of Engineering for Ubuntu reveals why they're swapping coreutils for Rust-built tools. Then we break down the GNOME 48 release, and why this one is special.

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WEBVTT 00:00:00.005 --> 00:00:02.705 Brent's on the road this week, and he's joining us from Spain. 00:00:02.885 --> 00:00:08.405 And so we assume you have learned the language and are speaking like a local at this point. 00:00:08.765 --> 00:00:11.645 Yeah, I've been working all weekend on a particular phrase and trying to get 00:00:11.645 --> 00:00:16.545 the different, I don't know, tips and tricks on how to pronounce this thing 00:00:16.545 --> 00:00:19.525 throughout the land here. Okay. 00:00:19.965 --> 00:00:20.985 Lay it on us. Let's see how you're doing. 00:00:21.525 --> 00:00:23.905 Linux no es chufado es muy bueno. 00:00:35.925 --> 00:00:40.645 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:40.805 --> 00:00:41.485 My name is Wes. 00:00:41.685 --> 00:00:42.645 And my name is Brent. 00:00:43.325 --> 00:00:48.105 Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show today, Canonical's VP of engineering 00:00:48.105 --> 00:00:53.985 for Ubuntu will reveal why they're considering swapping out the core utils for Rust-built tools. 00:00:54.105 --> 00:00:56.645 And then we're going to break down everything you really need to know about 00:00:56.645 --> 00:01:01.585 the new GNOME 48 which we'll be shipping in the next fedora and ubuntu before 00:01:01.585 --> 00:01:05.165 you even know it and then we're gonna round out the show with some great boosts 00:01:05.165 --> 00:01:08.925 some pics and a lot more so before we get any further i want to say a hello 00:01:08.925 --> 00:01:13.245 and a big time appropriate greetings to our virtual lug hello mumble room hello. 00:01:13.245 --> 00:01:18.765 Oh my god my voice is still broken oh. 00:01:18.765 --> 00:01:22.405 No we're nice we're glad to have you it's nice to have all of you actually and 00:01:22.405 --> 00:01:27.345 also shout out to those of you up in the quiet listening Our Mumble Room is 00:01:27.345 --> 00:01:32.525 live and running early on Sunday mornings, usually about 9.30, 9.45 Pacific Time. 00:01:32.625 --> 00:01:36.945 That Mumble Room's up and getting a live, low-latency Opus stream right off the mixer. 00:01:36.965 --> 00:01:39.945 And you're always welcome to join us with a free software stack from top to 00:01:39.945 --> 00:01:42.345 bottom and hang out in our virtual lug. 00:01:43.458 --> 00:01:47.618 And a big good morning to our friends at TailScale, tailscale.com slash unplugged. 00:01:47.678 --> 00:01:51.438 Go there and get it free for up to 100 devices and three user accounts, 00:01:51.718 --> 00:01:52.738 no credit card required. 00:01:52.878 --> 00:01:57.318 Support the show, tailscale.com slash unplugged. It is the easiest way to connect 00:01:57.318 --> 00:02:01.758 your devices and your services, like your applications. You can put your individual 00:02:01.758 --> 00:02:03.478 containers on your tail net. 00:02:03.938 --> 00:02:10.098 You can put, you know, like me, I have code.mysecretdomain.mysecretTLDR, 00:02:10.558 --> 00:02:15.158 TLDR, TLD. And when I go to that, I get VS Code in the browser, 00:02:15.198 --> 00:02:18.518 regardless of where I'm at, because all my devices are on Tailscale. 00:02:18.778 --> 00:02:21.058 It is a mesh network protected by... 00:02:21.058 --> 00:02:21.938 Waggaw! 00:02:22.258 --> 00:02:26.898 And it's fast! One of the things I love about Tailscale is it is smart enough 00:02:26.898 --> 00:02:31.738 to know if you're talking to a device on the LAN, or if you're talking to a device on the internet. 00:02:31.838 --> 00:02:35.358 Now, for the end user, there's no difference. It's like they're all on your 00:02:35.358 --> 00:02:39.718 LAN. But Tailscale is smart enough to know if it's right there on the same subnet, 00:02:39.938 --> 00:02:43.318 just go right to the machine directly. Don't bother going out to the internet. 00:02:43.518 --> 00:02:47.238 So when you're doing like file copies and things like that, it's blazing fast. 00:02:47.398 --> 00:02:51.038 And it's super quick to get set up. And if you're like me, you'll get it going. 00:02:51.198 --> 00:02:53.238 And 100 devices is going to be fine for your home lab stuff. 00:02:53.598 --> 00:02:57.038 But then you're going to realize how much better it is if you could get work to start using this. 00:02:57.178 --> 00:03:01.058 So send them to tailscale.com slash unplugged 2. thousands and 00:03:01.058 --> 00:03:04.298 thousands of companies are now using this to bridge 00:03:04.298 --> 00:03:07.638 the really complicated multi data center multi vps 00:03:07.638 --> 00:03:13.378 networks into one flat mesh network even things like pi kvm i put on my tail 00:03:13.378 --> 00:03:17.778 net so i can get my kvm wherever i'm at and get my server back up and running 00:03:17.778 --> 00:03:22.718 try it out for yourself individual plans and business plans free today at tailscale.com 00:03:22.718 --> 00:03:26.418 slash unplugged and for 100 devices go check it out. 00:03:29.470 --> 00:03:34.690 So I have been trying to sign a lot of documents recently, and I've used Sterling 00:03:34.690 --> 00:03:38.630 PDF for this, but I'm putting the question out there right now, right here. 00:03:39.330 --> 00:03:45.170 What are you using on Linux to natively sign PDFs? I just want to sign and date PDFs quickly. 00:03:45.470 --> 00:03:50.190 Like I had this eight-page thing. I had to sign every single page. How are you doing that? 00:03:50.390 --> 00:03:54.110 Boost it and tell me how you're doing it or go to linuxunplugged.com slash contact. 00:03:54.110 --> 00:04:00.290 Because I just envy every time I look over at one of my Mac-using friends and 00:04:00.290 --> 00:04:03.450 they just have the built-in preview tool and it just has a signature function. 00:04:03.630 --> 00:04:04.850 Yeah, it's very useful. 00:04:05.030 --> 00:04:08.050 I'm like, come on, come on, let's get that on Plasma. Let's get that. 00:04:08.390 --> 00:04:12.710 Or, you know, I don't know, like a flat pack that just boots up macOS with the 00:04:12.710 --> 00:04:15.450 interface to read your PDFs from a directory that's shared. 00:04:15.650 --> 00:04:20.290 That's hilarious. That's hilarious. That's too much, Wes. That's too much. No way. 00:04:20.670 --> 00:04:24.790 But do let me know if you have a way to do this natively on Linux because I 00:04:24.790 --> 00:04:26.370 feel inadequate right now. 00:04:30.210 --> 00:04:35.590 Canonical has made quite a bit of news recently. They've been discussing swapping 00:04:35.590 --> 00:04:39.170 out some of the GNU core utils with Rust versions. 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:42.770 And this is a big topic, and there's probably a lot of reasons behind it, 00:04:42.810 --> 00:04:45.730 so we thought the best thing to do would be to have John Seeger on the show. 00:04:45.870 --> 00:04:50.190 He's the VP of Engineering for Ubuntu at Canonical, and he's joining us right now. 00:04:54.930 --> 00:05:00.890 And so to really dig into this, John is joining us now, and this is all coming 00:05:00.890 --> 00:05:05.330 within about the 20-year milestone of Ubuntu. 00:05:05.610 --> 00:05:09.310 So I think it's a perfect time to reflect on all of this and hear about it right 00:05:09.310 --> 00:05:11.850 from the horse's mouth. John, welcome to the Unplugged program. 00:05:12.290 --> 00:05:12.490 Hey. 00:05:13.150 --> 00:05:19.670 Hello. So you made two really great posts. First, it was engineering Ubuntu 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:23.710 for the next 20 years, which was interesting, right? 00:05:23.750 --> 00:05:27.110 You really touched on upgrading communication, focusing on automation, 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:32.350 simplifying process, maybe even embracing new languages, which you expand on 00:05:32.350 --> 00:05:38.150 in your second post recently, which is carefully but purposefully oxidizing Ubuntu. 00:05:38.470 --> 00:05:42.570 And in this post, you talk about starting with Ubuntu 25.10 and potentially 00:05:42.570 --> 00:05:46.710 maybe making them default in 2604 LTS, if everything works out. 00:05:47.330 --> 00:05:52.870 Some of the core utils that people are used to would get replaced with a Rust version. 00:05:53.210 --> 00:05:59.870 So something like LS or CP or MV would be swapped out with a Rust implementation of a similar tool. 00:06:00.826 --> 00:06:04.406 And I wondered if you wouldn't mind kind of talking about some of the rationale 00:06:04.406 --> 00:06:10.286 behind this idea and where it's at and kind of any of the coloring you think we might need. 00:06:10.746 --> 00:06:15.906 Yeah, so the first post I made about three days after taking on the appointment 00:06:15.906 --> 00:06:18.026 kind of officially internally at Canonical. 00:06:18.246 --> 00:06:18.666 Congratulations. 00:06:19.086 --> 00:06:21.786 Thank you. My new role seems to be looking after the desktop team, 00:06:21.926 --> 00:06:23.706 the foundations team, and the server team. 00:06:24.446 --> 00:06:28.366 And one of the things I would really like to reinvigorate about 00:06:28.366 --> 00:06:31.686 Ubuntu is this idea that it is a it's 00:06:31.686 --> 00:06:36.626 based on this very stable very dependable community project that is Debian but 00:06:36.626 --> 00:06:42.106 that we have a bit more freedom to kind of ship later things maybe take a few 00:06:42.106 --> 00:06:47.006 more risks like Ubuntu was always about taking the very latest and greatest 00:06:47.006 --> 00:06:50.366 of open source we could find and shipping it in a way that perhaps Debian didn't 00:06:50.366 --> 00:06:51.466 want to, or maybe shouldn't. 00:06:52.026 --> 00:06:56.886 And what happened is Ubuntu became very successful. And I think over time, 00:06:57.106 --> 00:07:02.346 those interim releases that kind of come between the LTSs got maybe a little bit less bold. 00:07:02.826 --> 00:07:07.246 It was a little bit more sort of turning the handle. And I would like to bring 00:07:07.246 --> 00:07:13.006 back a bit more experimentation and think about what are the things we want 00:07:13.006 --> 00:07:15.386 to introduce? What are the practices? 00:07:15.686 --> 00:07:18.786 Who are the sorts of people we want to bring along for the next 20 years of 00:07:18.786 --> 00:07:24.146 Ubuntu, noting the extraordinary success that we as a community have enjoyed over the past 20 years. 00:07:24.906 --> 00:07:31.026 So CoreUtils is an interesting change to me because it is a very foundational 00:07:31.026 --> 00:07:35.386 part of the distribution. It's part of the Debian Essentials sort of package set. 00:07:35.586 --> 00:07:38.706 And something we use all the time and basically never talk about. 00:07:38.806 --> 00:07:42.866 Right. It's in all your scripts. It's LS, it's CP, it's a whole bunch of stuff. 00:07:43.006 --> 00:07:45.726 And there's this wonderful project under the name of 00:07:45.726 --> 00:07:49.126 you utils who are writing modern implementations of 00:07:49.126 --> 00:07:52.366 core utils and find utils and diff utils and my 00:07:52.366 --> 00:07:55.466 understanding having spoken to the lead developer is it it started out kind 00:07:55.466 --> 00:07:58.546 of as a hobby project to learn a bit of rust but has gained quite a lot of momentum 00:07:58.546 --> 00:08:03.506 and one of the things that really struck me about the project is right from 00:08:03.506 --> 00:08:07.386 the very start they've been measuring themselves against the GNU test suite 00:08:07.386 --> 00:08:10.526 and they're not doing it in spite of the GNU call utils, 00:08:10.546 --> 00:08:13.246 they actually work with the GNU folks at times, 00:08:13.286 --> 00:08:16.686 and when they discover interesting behaviors or undocumented behaviors, 00:08:16.766 --> 00:08:19.766 they collaborate with them to either submit fixes or clarify documentation. 00:08:20.286 --> 00:08:23.926 But fundamentally, it is a complete re-implementation. Mostly, 00:08:24.146 --> 00:08:26.006 not huge numbers of changes. 00:08:26.226 --> 00:08:28.946 They can't be, right? They're supposed to be 100% compatible. 00:08:29.206 --> 00:08:33.646 There are places where it's a little faster. There are places where you get 00:08:33.646 --> 00:08:36.986 nice little features like an interactive progress bar on the copy command, for example. 00:08:37.206 --> 00:08:40.446 There's an example of that in the FOSDEM talk that I linked in my post. 00:08:40.846 --> 00:08:45.586 And so this is an experiment. It's an experiment to see if we can integrate 00:08:45.586 --> 00:08:50.506 a really interesting new project in at the heart of the distribution which has 00:08:50.506 --> 00:08:54.746 a really active community around it who are interested in memory safety and 00:08:54.746 --> 00:08:57.246 resilience and kind of see how that goes. 00:08:58.268 --> 00:09:03.068 So, John, when I heard about this, my first thought was this must be a calculation 00:09:03.068 --> 00:09:05.088 for the long term, right? 00:09:05.228 --> 00:09:09.668 Your next, say, 2604, which is going to get supported for more than a decade. 00:09:10.208 --> 00:09:14.688 Is this about making this a more sustainable long-term support distribution? 00:09:14.688 --> 00:09:16.648 Is that sort of the high-level goal here? 00:09:16.828 --> 00:09:21.488 It's one of the considerations, yes. But it's also about our ability to grow 00:09:21.488 --> 00:09:23.168 the contributor base to Ubuntu. 00:09:23.468 --> 00:09:27.008 We grew really steadily, in my understanding. I wasn't a part of the project 00:09:27.008 --> 00:09:30.008 back then, but the community grew really steadily for years. 00:09:30.148 --> 00:09:34.748 But in the last five to six years, we have not seen the levels of contribution 00:09:34.748 --> 00:09:38.148 perhaps we were used to, and it certainly hasn't been growing the way we would like. 00:09:38.528 --> 00:09:43.148 And I don't have hard facts here, but coming to Linux distribution development 00:09:43.148 --> 00:09:47.828 as more of a kind of cloud-oriented developer, my feeling is that a lot of the 00:09:47.828 --> 00:09:49.968 tooling feels its age a little bit. 00:09:49.968 --> 00:09:54.448 If you compare to the craft tooling for building things like snaps and charms, 00:09:54.648 --> 00:09:58.768 you compare to the tooling for building flatbacks, you compare to the contribution process for Nix. 00:09:59.008 --> 00:10:03.668 We've also seen Silverblue and the uBlue project coming along trying to introduce 00:10:03.668 --> 00:10:04.728 more of those workflows too. 00:10:04.908 --> 00:10:07.808 Right, and they have absolutely nailed it, in my opinion. Like this, 00:10:08.088 --> 00:10:10.268 okay, you've learned all these skills for building Dockerfiles, 00:10:10.288 --> 00:10:13.328 what if you could use those exact same skills to build your OS? And so... 00:10:14.319 --> 00:10:19.099 Part of the deal with this Rust Core Utils thing is I want to attract developers, 00:10:19.359 --> 00:10:23.559 you know, the next generation of developers who are interested in becoming Ubuntu 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:26.239 developers, Ubuntu maintainers. And so that's absolutely part of it. 00:10:27.019 --> 00:10:30.559 Am I right in picking up here that there's both the specifics of what you're 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.059 swapping out and why, but then it kind of sounded like, too, 00:10:33.599 --> 00:10:37.379 it was maybe an exercise in your new role of seeing what it is like to try to 00:10:37.379 --> 00:10:40.179 be able to swap out things, kind of regardless of how this goes, 00:10:40.299 --> 00:10:43.439 to be able to go through the workflow and see how the community and contributors respond? 00:10:43.659 --> 00:10:48.879 Yeah, exactly. And I want to say I'm absolutely committed to making this change in 25.10. 00:10:49.079 --> 00:10:52.599 So on the day that the archive opens in 25.10, this change will have happened. 00:10:52.819 --> 00:10:57.979 The default core utils implementation for 25.10 is going to be the utils thing from the start. 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:02.339 But that said, I don't want to be reckless about it. We will do our absolute 00:11:02.339 --> 00:11:05.939 best at Canonical with our community. And we're also going to work very closely 00:11:05.939 --> 00:11:07.839 with the upstream to resolve bugs. 00:11:07.939 --> 00:11:11.779 But I'm not going to ultimately stand on principle and jeopardize the stability 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:15.919 and reliability of Ubuntu. If this doesn't work out, we would, of course, roll it back. 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.979 But I'm pretty hopeful that it's going to from what I've seen so far. 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:24.239 Well, that brings up then, what are you looking for to be able to slot it into a future LTS? 00:11:24.619 --> 00:11:28.139 So I guess the first thing is we will change it in the archive and see what breaks. 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:33.259 We're going to have a big rebuild going on. It'll be interesting to see which of our scripts break. 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.539 I have personally run into one interesting bug, which is the CP and move and 00:11:37.539 --> 00:11:42.439 LS commands don't currently respect the kind of dash capital Z command flag 00:11:42.439 --> 00:11:44.119 for respecting SE Linux contexts. 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.879 We have a plan already with the upstream on how we will help them get that implemented. 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.279 And there's a few other things. So it's really about in those first few weeks, 00:11:53.219 --> 00:11:54.559 understanding where the delta is. 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:58.899 And from there, the other one is locales. So currently things like the support 00:11:58.899 --> 00:12:03.699 command, if you use a different locale other than the kind of C locales, it won't respect it. 00:12:03.819 --> 00:12:06.819 So if you're in France and you use a French locale and you sort, 00:12:06.959 --> 00:12:10.519 it won't respect your locale. So again, we clearly have to fix that before we ship it. 00:12:11.099 --> 00:12:14.239 So those are the two big ones that I know about at the moment. 00:12:14.579 --> 00:12:16.779 We'll see. I've been running it on my machine for the last three, 00:12:16.839 --> 00:12:18.519 four weeks, and so have a bunch of my colleagues. 00:12:18.699 --> 00:12:22.679 And from what I can tell, apart from the SE Linux thing, pretty good so far. 00:12:22.839 --> 00:12:27.699 Is this where Oxidizer comes in to let you test and swap between the different versions? 00:12:27.979 --> 00:12:31.359 Yeah. So Oxidizer is, I just want to stress, not a canonical project. 00:12:31.699 --> 00:12:34.779 Oxidizer is a utility i wrote to satisfy my own curiosity 00:12:34.779 --> 00:12:37.679 so it it is a blatant abuse 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:40.519 in some regards of the way debian switches packages out 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.879 and the the kind of unix file system hierarchy that kind of thing all it really 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:50.199 does is it installs the new core utils package it runs which against each of 00:12:50.199 --> 00:12:53.699 the binaries core utils provides and essentially backs up the old one and then 00:12:53.699 --> 00:12:56.839 sim links over the top of it with the new one it's it's a bit of a hack but 00:12:56.839 --> 00:12:59.919 i wanted to see rather than something like the alternative system, 00:13:00.199 --> 00:13:04.439 I wanted to see what would happen to my system if really the only implementation 00:13:04.439 --> 00:13:06.559 that it could find was the UUtils one, right? 00:13:06.899 --> 00:13:07.219 Sure. 00:13:08.089 --> 00:13:11.429 Do you think that might ship in 2510 for users to be able to test? 00:13:11.609 --> 00:13:14.949 No, in 2510, it's going to be the UUTILs thing. 00:13:15.029 --> 00:13:15.849 It's going to be the Rust. 00:13:15.969 --> 00:13:19.769 Yeah, so you'll be able to install GNUK or UUTILs still. It may be that the 00:13:19.769 --> 00:13:22.169 commands are prefixed or something like that. 00:13:22.269 --> 00:13:25.189 But by default, people in 2510 are going to get the new one. 00:13:25.369 --> 00:13:29.289 When you type LS, you'll be getting the Rust UUTILs LS command. 00:13:29.749 --> 00:13:30.089 Wow. 00:13:30.789 --> 00:13:35.189 I mean, that, I got to be honest, makes me want to try out 2510 just right there. 00:13:36.109 --> 00:13:37.609 So it's doing something, John. 00:13:37.609 --> 00:13:41.309 Maybe we should, okay, so there's CoreUtil, in Oxidizer right now, 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:43.149 there's, what, four experiments? 00:13:43.589 --> 00:13:49.109 CoreUtils, FindUtils, DiffUtils, and then also Pseudo-RS. Maybe you could touch 00:13:49.109 --> 00:13:51.809 on why or how you picked the set? 00:13:51.989 --> 00:13:55.469 Yeah, so CoreUtils, I was initially what kind of piqued my interest, 00:13:55.469 --> 00:13:57.629 and that seems like one of the most mature. 00:13:58.569 --> 00:14:02.409 I'm not planning right now, we're not planning right now on making FindUtils 00:14:02.409 --> 00:14:07.369 or DiffUtils default for 2510. I am seriously considering, and I've been meeting 00:14:07.369 --> 00:14:10.529 with the maintainers of sudo-rs, that's another consideration. 00:14:10.909 --> 00:14:15.209 So there's a good chance, it's not for sure, but there's a good chance that 00:14:15.209 --> 00:14:20.049 sudo-rs will be the default sudo implementation in 2510 if we can work out a 00:14:20.049 --> 00:14:23.969 plan with the upstream maintainers on how we implement a couple of little missing 00:14:23.969 --> 00:14:25.649 features that we would like to make sure are present. 00:14:25.809 --> 00:14:29.829 So again, you may well, when you type sudo in 2510, if the plan goes well, 00:14:29.849 --> 00:14:33.829 you will be getting this nice new equivalent. And that's another project where 00:14:33.829 --> 00:14:38.309 they test very rigorously, and they're in constant communication with the kind 00:14:38.309 --> 00:14:39.709 of OG pseudo developer, right? 00:14:40.609 --> 00:14:43.449 It's very much collaborative, right, which is really nice to see. 00:14:43.949 --> 00:14:49.769 Okay, so we've kind of touched on some of the meta reasons around why we might want to do this. 00:14:49.869 --> 00:14:54.009 But especially talking about pseudo makes me think, well, security and some 00:14:54.009 --> 00:14:58.389 of the specifics around rewrites in Rust might also be pretty relevant. 00:14:58.389 --> 00:15:01.209 I guess the important thing to highlight here is with both of these projects, 00:15:01.329 --> 00:15:03.349 with Core Utils and with sudo RS, there will be bugs. 00:15:03.909 --> 00:15:06.869 Sure as night follows day, it's software, we will find bugs. 00:15:07.269 --> 00:15:10.409 We're very committed to fixing those bugs, working with the maintainers and 00:15:10.409 --> 00:15:13.509 making sure the maintainers have the resources they need to do that. 00:15:13.889 --> 00:15:17.949 The sudo RS implementation has had a formal security audit of which they have 00:15:17.949 --> 00:15:19.529 posted the results, and it was very positive. 00:15:20.369 --> 00:15:23.849 And there is a, you know, while it's not impossible to write unsafe code in 00:15:23.849 --> 00:15:28.289 Rust, you know, the compiler makes you work much harder to do the wrong thing. 00:15:28.389 --> 00:15:31.609 And this is, again, back to the kind of community-building aspect. 00:15:31.809 --> 00:15:35.629 If a new developer or a young and experienced developer wants to be part of this, 00:15:36.621 --> 00:15:40.601 While learning the BorrowChecker can be hard, it also means you're much less 00:15:40.601 --> 00:15:43.561 likely to accidentally do something that could be very fatal, right? 00:15:43.661 --> 00:15:47.601 And so it will allow, I think, a community of people to contribute with confidence 00:15:47.601 --> 00:15:51.281 and allow us to ship it with confidence knowing that that guardrail is in place. 00:15:51.581 --> 00:15:54.781 Right. You kind of have built-in help for the review. And as you touch on, 00:15:54.861 --> 00:15:58.281 maybe it allows folks to be a little more ambitious in what their contributions can be. 00:15:58.281 --> 00:16:01.861 Yeah, I hope so. And that's not to say, you know, Sudo and the original GNU 00:16:01.861 --> 00:16:02.941 core utils are very stable. 00:16:03.181 --> 00:16:05.021 They've got a very great track record for security. You know, 00:16:05.081 --> 00:16:09.001 this is not a reaction. It's just a, it's an experiment to see what we can achieve. 00:16:09.381 --> 00:16:12.441 John, I want to talk about a couple of the criticisms in a moment, 00:16:12.621 --> 00:16:17.381 but just to kind of clarify, will Canonical be contributing back upstream to 00:16:17.381 --> 00:16:21.701 projects like Sudo RS and these other projects that get incorporated into Ubuntu? 00:16:21.701 --> 00:16:24.461 Yeah so we yeah we'll certainly 00:16:24.461 --> 00:16:27.421 be submitting patches where we can we may also 00:16:27.421 --> 00:16:30.081 contribute some funding in some cases for certain things if we've got 00:16:30.081 --> 00:16:33.081 particular features or things that we want to to land 00:16:33.081 --> 00:16:35.741 so we're this isn't just we're gonna 00:16:35.741 --> 00:16:38.461 absorb their work and wave at them from a you know 00:16:38.461 --> 00:16:43.061 you know wish them well we're i'm speaking with both of them both projects um 00:16:43.061 --> 00:16:46.101 frequently over the last couple of weeks and we're we're working on kind of 00:16:46.101 --> 00:16:49.081 agreement about how we might do this in a way that makes them comfortable and 00:16:49.081 --> 00:16:53.381 confident and doesn't what i didn't want to do was ship something surprise them 00:16:53.381 --> 00:16:56.601 and then be like oh my god we weren't ready what are you doing kind of thing 00:16:56.601 --> 00:16:58.081 so it's it's a bit of a team effort. 00:16:58.081 --> 00:17:01.421 It seems like it could have some potential to really make these tools better 00:17:01.421 --> 00:17:05.821 and make the adoption by by you know other distributions or other operating 00:17:05.821 --> 00:17:09.921 systems uh even more likely i mean this could be better for everybody which 00:17:09.921 --> 00:17:17.481 gets me to probably what i've seen is the top concern and it echoes some previous debates of yore, 00:17:17.741 --> 00:17:21.961 and that is that, you know, this is essentially a perceived change to the established 00:17:21.961 --> 00:17:26.021 GNU slash Linux ecosystem and the GNU core utilities. 00:17:26.501 --> 00:17:30.741 It's the way we've always done things, John, and replacing them with Rust alternatives 00:17:30.741 --> 00:17:36.261 is seen by some as sort of a shift to kind of change away from a GNU slash Linux 00:17:36.261 --> 00:17:40.221 identity and, you know, maybe less GPL software. 00:17:40.461 --> 00:17:43.281 I think that's like the number one bit of pushback I've seen, 00:17:43.321 --> 00:17:46.381 and I'm sure you've processed that i'm sure you guys have thought a lot about 00:17:46.381 --> 00:17:48.961 that so i'd like to hear just what you're thinking there. 00:17:48.961 --> 00:17:52.381 Yeah so i think firstly i absolutely recognize 00:17:52.381 --> 00:17:55.781 the importance of gnu and the gpl license throughout 00:17:55.781 --> 00:17:59.841 kind of open source history and in fact canonical in general licenses is software 00:17:59.841 --> 00:18:03.901 gpl and agpl depending on what the code is right like we we absolutely believe 00:18:03.901 --> 00:18:08.321 in that this change is not motivated by license and it absolutely shouldn't 00:18:08.321 --> 00:18:13.281 be seen as indicative of a broader move away from gnu utilities we're not making 00:18:13.281 --> 00:18:15.741 some statement that we're no longer going to use GNU things, 00:18:16.061 --> 00:18:20.381 this is, it is, in many ways, it's kind of a surface level as it looks. 00:18:21.001 --> 00:18:25.201 And I've heard some people have concerns about, okay, well, what happens if. 00:18:27.129 --> 00:18:31.629 Canonical were to somehow commercialize core utils, was very much not the plan. 00:18:31.729 --> 00:18:35.129 Like I say, we may make some contributions, but I don't see the benefit for 00:18:35.129 --> 00:18:37.089 anybody in doing that, let alone Canonical. 00:18:37.409 --> 00:18:42.129 And I also think people have expressed some discomfort, I suppose, 00:18:42.509 --> 00:18:47.549 in something that is MIT license being so core in the distribution they use. 00:18:47.749 --> 00:18:52.429 And to that, I would answer, in reality, as the distributors, 00:18:52.509 --> 00:18:55.649 as the creators of Ubuntu, 00:18:55.649 --> 00:18:58.809 we didn't create this software we have found 00:18:58.809 --> 00:19:02.189 a project we think is interesting their beliefs and their their 00:19:02.189 --> 00:19:05.249 motives appear to align very well with our own project and 00:19:05.249 --> 00:19:09.209 we're willing to give them a shot like i'm excited to do it but at the end of 00:19:09.209 --> 00:19:12.609 the day if if that community turns out not to have motives that are aligned 00:19:12.609 --> 00:19:16.689 with the goals of ubuntu or we believe it not to be in the best interest of 00:19:16.689 --> 00:19:20.149 our users we'll stop shipping it um you know it's not like we are the authors 00:19:20.149 --> 00:19:22.689 of core utils in the first place right like we were still only shipping the 00:19:22.689 --> 00:19:25.149 canoe stuff we're not we may have contributed in places, 00:19:25.189 --> 00:19:27.709 but we're certainly not a core contributor to that toolset, right? 00:19:27.889 --> 00:19:28.389 That makes sense. 00:19:28.929 --> 00:19:35.069 And so ultimately it comes down to, do you trust Canonical to make the choice 00:19:35.069 --> 00:19:36.129 about what runs on your machine? 00:19:36.149 --> 00:19:38.869 And if you don't, I mean, you probably shouldn't run Ubuntu, 00:19:39.009 --> 00:19:41.449 right? Like I would, that hopefully goes without saying. 00:19:42.338 --> 00:19:47.638 I really hope people can see past that. This is not a politically motivated move. 00:19:47.778 --> 00:19:52.638 This is an interesting technical experiment that I hope will stimulate some 00:19:52.638 --> 00:19:57.038 activity from some corners of the Linux ecosystem that we perhaps have yet to interact with so much. 00:19:57.558 --> 00:20:00.698 Now, on the subject of portability, I think this is the other thing I've seen 00:20:00.698 --> 00:20:02.578 is, you know, pretty portable right now. 00:20:02.858 --> 00:20:06.898 These tools work on just about everything, including low-end ARM IoT devices, 00:20:07.958 --> 00:20:11.678 you know, older hardware, maybe stuff that isn't supported by the latest Linux, 00:20:11.858 --> 00:20:13.578 but still you can get older Ubuntu's working on. 00:20:13.818 --> 00:20:17.818 Right, with Rust comes LLVM, and then maybe there's some platforms or other 00:20:17.818 --> 00:20:20.338 specifics that aren't well supported, at least in theory. 00:20:20.438 --> 00:20:23.858 We've seen this come up with the Rust and the Linux kernel debate as well, right? 00:20:23.858 --> 00:20:26.718 So i guess on architecture support in general 00:20:26.718 --> 00:20:30.238 when canonical commits to an architecture we commit to an architecture so 00:20:30.238 --> 00:20:33.938 there is absolutely no way this change will persist if you 00:20:33.938 --> 00:20:39.978 know suddenly the experience with core utils is subpar on mhf or on power pc64 00:20:39.978 --> 00:20:44.298 or s390x or any of the other you know slightly less well-known architectures 00:20:44.298 --> 00:20:48.238 that we support so and that would be a deal breaker for me if this can't be 00:20:48.238 --> 00:20:52.238 the default in a stable reliable and performant manner on all of the architectures, 00:20:52.318 --> 00:20:53.718 then it shouldn't be the default on any of them. 00:20:53.938 --> 00:20:56.218 And that's what we're about to find out, right? I don't have a mainframe in 00:20:56.218 --> 00:20:58.278 my house, so it's been hard for me to test that so far. 00:20:59.958 --> 00:21:03.038 But, you know, maybe it will draw community members in that are motivated to 00:21:03.038 --> 00:21:05.818 help test that. I mean, that could be a pleasant result. 00:21:05.998 --> 00:21:09.718 Exactly, and we do a bunch of work with IBM every year to make sure that this 00:21:09.718 --> 00:21:12.038 works. And I would imagine we'll be doing the same here. 00:21:12.238 --> 00:21:17.318 One of the concerns I've heard is that the UUtils project ships a kind of single 00:21:17.318 --> 00:21:21.258 unified binary at user bin core utils, which you kind of simlink to a little 00:21:21.258 --> 00:21:22.158 bit like BusyBox, right? 00:21:22.258 --> 00:21:26.658 So you would simlink userbinls to userbin coreutils, and it would pick that 00:21:26.658 --> 00:21:29.478 up and invoke it. So you end up with this one kind of big binary. 00:21:29.858 --> 00:21:34.498 I don't foresee that being an issue, even on kind of low performance hardware. 00:21:34.638 --> 00:21:40.138 I've run it on an original Raspberry Pi, like the OG V1 Raspberry Pi, and it was fine. 00:21:40.758 --> 00:21:44.058 People have different use cases, though. I'm sure things will get shaken out 00:21:44.058 --> 00:21:46.218 in the wash, and we'll address that when we come to it. 00:21:47.447 --> 00:21:53.807 So, I mean, full disclosure, I'm all here for it, but you're moving quick with this now. 00:21:54.107 --> 00:21:54.447 Yeah. 00:21:54.867 --> 00:21:59.087 In a way, this is a big change, but then on top of that, there's discussion 00:21:59.087 --> 00:22:02.827 about moving from IRC and mailing lists to Matrix and Discourse. 00:22:03.007 --> 00:22:05.847 There's a lot of changes beyond just this happening. 00:22:06.247 --> 00:22:10.327 This comes back to how the community and Ubuntu, the project, 00:22:10.327 --> 00:22:13.027 has become a little fragmented, sort of naturally, right? 00:22:13.067 --> 00:22:16.627 Like, in the time that Ubuntu has been around, a lot has changed on the internet. 00:22:16.627 --> 00:22:21.207 And I want to make the process of contributing as enjoyable and as understandable 00:22:21.207 --> 00:22:23.447 and as relatable as possible. 00:22:23.627 --> 00:22:26.907 And so, you know, having three different places where you have to check for 00:22:26.907 --> 00:22:30.667 instant messages and two different discussion forums and a mailing list, 00:22:30.727 --> 00:22:34.667 it's complicated, right? And the same story is true of packaging. 00:22:34.887 --> 00:22:38.347 There are four or five different routes to packaging a dev that, 00:22:38.507 --> 00:22:41.707 you know, you might upload or have someone sponsor for you into Ubuntu. 00:22:41.947 --> 00:22:45.807 And I want very much to collapse that down. I want the process to be A, 00:22:46.327 --> 00:22:52.067 very understandable, B, to have as many kind of modern, nice kind of ergonomic 00:22:52.067 --> 00:22:55.187 tools to use, and C, be as enjoyable as possible. 00:22:55.327 --> 00:22:59.007 Like my own personal journey in contributing to Linux distributions has been 00:22:59.007 --> 00:23:01.727 in Arch Linux and in NixOS mostly. 00:23:02.027 --> 00:23:07.887 And one of the things that got me so excited about NixOS was how simple it was 00:23:07.887 --> 00:23:09.267 to become a NixOS contributor. 00:23:09.267 --> 00:23:14.987 There are benefits and drawbacks to one huge repository that has thousands of 00:23:14.987 --> 00:23:18.167 packages, but one of the benefits is it's a huge pile of text files that anyone 00:23:18.167 --> 00:23:20.087 can fork and edit and get feedback on. 00:23:21.092 --> 00:23:24.312 And so while we're not going to go there with ubuntu as 00:23:24.312 --> 00:23:27.152 such what i would like to do is is try and think about what that 00:23:27.152 --> 00:23:29.952 journey looks like for a new contributor and for an 00:23:29.952 --> 00:23:32.732 existing contributor and make it as enjoyable and as efficient as 00:23:32.732 --> 00:23:35.952 possible and so getting the communications channels agreed 00:23:35.952 --> 00:23:39.672 and and sorted feels to me like a really important thing 00:23:39.672 --> 00:23:43.212 to do up front if you don't know where to go to get help you're always 00:23:43.212 --> 00:23:46.652 going to stumble right and so next cycle in addition to these changes one 00:23:46.652 --> 00:23:49.812 of the things i'm going to do is have our ubuntu focused technical 00:23:49.812 --> 00:23:53.032 authors at canonical focus on what i'm calling the ubuntu project 00:23:53.032 --> 00:23:56.372 documentation so this is centralizing all of 00:23:56.372 --> 00:23:59.152 the documentation about the mir process the stable 00:23:59.152 --> 00:24:03.492 release updates process what it means to do a proposed migration what it means 00:24:03.492 --> 00:24:07.492 to do a phased upgrade what it do i mean all of these things that the community 00:24:07.492 --> 00:24:11.792 knows collectively in its conscience that perhaps the documentation for has 00:24:11.792 --> 00:24:14.272 been kind of scattered around a bit in the past and we're going to have a really 00:24:14.272 --> 00:24:18.492 concentrated effort to get that into a really nice modern searchable kind of indexed 00:24:18.912 --> 00:24:23.152 professional-looking page where people can really understand how they might play into this project. 00:24:24.172 --> 00:24:27.052 Okay, well, that's a lot to look forward to. 00:24:27.772 --> 00:24:32.752 I do want to note, you mentioned NixOS, and if folks are curious, 00:24:33.192 --> 00:24:35.892 you know, I was playing around with Oxidizer myself. 00:24:36.032 --> 00:24:36.572 Of course. 00:24:36.732 --> 00:24:39.712 And you've got some great docs, speaking of, here about how you can, 00:24:39.732 --> 00:24:43.172 you know, download a pre-compiled binary, probably the easiest way, 00:24:43.312 --> 00:24:46.612 or, you know, you can compile it with Cargo, because it is itself written in 00:24:46.612 --> 00:24:48.392 Rust, which is neat, and we can talk about it if you want. 00:24:48.492 --> 00:24:55.652 But i will say i was playing around with the upcoming 2504 nightly build and 00:24:55.652 --> 00:25:01.292 i'll also say it runs really nice uh just with nyx because i see you've got a flake in there nice. 00:25:01.292 --> 00:25:06.412 Yeah so i did that because um i have been an xos user for some time i'm using 00:25:06.412 --> 00:25:09.592 ubuntu everywhere on my machines at the moment but i one of the features i really 00:25:09.592 --> 00:25:13.412 like about nyx is the kind of development shells and so when i was developing 00:25:13.412 --> 00:25:17.352 oxidizer i was using a nyx development shell to get you know pin the version 00:25:17.352 --> 00:25:19.572 of Rust and get clippy and all those kind of things. 00:25:20.072 --> 00:25:20.632 Oh, yeah, that's great. 00:25:22.434 --> 00:25:25.294 Makes sense. Well, so John, is there anything else that you want to touch on 00:25:25.294 --> 00:25:28.474 or some aspects that you feel like needed a little more air or attention? 00:25:28.894 --> 00:25:34.014 I don't think so. I am super excited about this whole thing, right? 00:25:34.074 --> 00:25:38.574 Like it's a huge honor, I suppose, to be given this opportunity. 00:25:38.574 --> 00:25:40.954 And what I will say is that things are going to change. 00:25:41.254 --> 00:25:45.334 And with all change will come a little discomfort for some folks. 00:25:45.334 --> 00:25:48.914 But I am really confident that we can make an impact and kind of, 00:25:49.054 --> 00:25:55.574 I listened to this conference talk years ago from a very famous security researcher called Haroon Mir. 00:25:55.694 --> 00:25:58.494 And the title of the talk was, what got us here won't get us there. 00:25:58.874 --> 00:26:04.494 And to me, that sentence is really kind of key in how I think about how do we 00:26:04.494 --> 00:26:07.714 make Ubuntu, how do we continue Ubuntu's success for the next 20 years? 00:26:07.854 --> 00:26:11.614 And I'd like to think really carefully about that and work with the community to kind of realize it. 00:26:12.034 --> 00:26:15.494 I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, John, it's actually pretty exciting to hear, 00:26:15.574 --> 00:26:20.554 and I'd absolutely be down to have you on when 2510 ships, maybe not the first 00:26:20.554 --> 00:26:23.534 day, but whenever you have time afterwards, and we can kind of discuss how it's 00:26:23.534 --> 00:26:24.934 going and how it's been received. 00:26:25.114 --> 00:26:27.554 Yeah, let's absolutely do it. And by then, I hope there'll be a little bit more 00:26:27.554 --> 00:26:31.434 details on how the core utility stuff is going, maybe some developments on sudo RS. 00:26:32.854 --> 00:26:36.474 I've also had a really interesting conversation with Mitchell Hashimoto about 00:26:36.474 --> 00:26:40.254 Ghosty, his new terminal emulator, and what part that might be able to do in 00:26:40.254 --> 00:26:44.214 the future. So, yeah, some exciting stuff in the works. 00:26:44.634 --> 00:26:47.014 All right. Well, I look forward to chatting soon. Thanks for coming on, John. 00:26:47.454 --> 00:26:47.954 Thank you very much. 00:26:51.019 --> 00:26:57.179 1password.com slash unplugged. That's the number 1password.com lowercase unplugged. 00:26:57.319 --> 00:27:00.979 Go there and check this out. What a little peace of mind. 00:27:01.179 --> 00:27:04.499 What a bit of cold water in a desert. I'll explain it to you like this. 00:27:04.719 --> 00:27:09.059 So story time with Chris. Imagine your company's security is like the quad of a college campus. 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:13.599 There are those nice brick paths between the buildings. 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Support the show and check it out. 00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.800 That's 1Password.com slash unplugged. 00:29:00.600 --> 00:29:07.400 Well, last Wednesday, we saw GNOME 48 come to us, and this one is going to be a big one. 00:29:07.580 --> 00:29:11.460 It's going to be in Fedora and also Ubuntu. 00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:15.840 And I think you boys have some favorite features in this particular release. 00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:19.680 This is an impressive one. I mean, it's been a while since we've really stopped 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:24.080 and talked about an individual GNOME release, but this one I think really merits it. 00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:31.400 And I have been low key using Gnome 47 since it came out on my homework station. 00:29:31.540 --> 00:29:35.060 Yeah, you've become a secret Gnome user on the sneaky side. 00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:39.020 After about two years of Plasma everywhere, right? It's been about two years at least. 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:43.820 But this has been really nice. And then to see 48 come out, it really completes 00:29:43.820 --> 00:29:48.980 this pattern of Gnome sometimes takes a step back as far as we're concerned, 00:29:49.060 --> 00:29:50.260 like with the text editor changes. 00:29:50.500 --> 00:29:53.900 But then you give them a release or two and they've taken two or three steps forward. 00:29:54.080 --> 00:30:00.080 And a lot of it is stuff that, I don't think this is hyperbole at all, 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:06.100 with GNOME 48 comes together, and it is now, just out-of-the-box stock, 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.320 more polished, more consistent, 00:30:10.040 --> 00:30:18.620 easier to use, more intuitive than anything that may be macOS 6 and 7. 00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:23.280 I mean, it's, it's remarkably how much better it is than the commercial platforms. 00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:29.040 And yet maybe it doesn't have like every gosh darn like tool that I, I want from plasma. 00:30:30.405 --> 00:30:32.865 When you bring it up, here's just, here's, here's, I'll make my case. 00:30:33.385 --> 00:30:34.985 Simple things. Let's start with simple things. 00:30:36.025 --> 00:30:40.805 Notification stacking by group now is so much better when you're somebody who 00:30:40.805 --> 00:30:44.205 gets a lot of messages inbound or something like this. Now they'll all stack under an element. 00:30:44.205 --> 00:30:45.505 Yes, I love this. 00:30:46.845 --> 00:30:53.265 But the thing that we have been waiting for, for five years, has landed in GNOME 48. 00:30:53.265 --> 00:30:58.045 And it's going to make it a better experience on those of you that have an Intel 00:30:58.045 --> 00:31:03.765 video card or maybe like me, you know, you've got a graphics card from way back 00:31:03.765 --> 00:31:05.085 in the day where they're actually affordable. 00:31:05.485 --> 00:31:09.185 Well, now we have dynamic triple buffering, smoother animations, 00:31:09.645 --> 00:31:13.705 fewer skipped frames, perceived improved performance, and also with this, 00:31:13.745 --> 00:31:15.265 reduced CPU and memory usage. 00:31:15.965 --> 00:31:22.085 And this has been just the yeoman's work of Daniel from Canonical for so long 00:31:22.085 --> 00:31:24.505 as they have iterated on this and made changes. 00:31:24.725 --> 00:31:28.365 And there's perceivable improvements, like 5x faster load for Windows, 00:31:29.025 --> 00:31:32.285 10 times faster scrolling in like a thumbnail-heavy folder. 00:31:32.465 --> 00:31:35.365 I mean, real, actual, visible improvements in performance. 00:31:35.725 --> 00:31:42.745 Yeah, it's quite nice, either on my Intel ThinkPad here or in a virtual machine with a virtual setup. 00:31:43.025 --> 00:31:46.565 And it's neat because previously, right, Canonical had been shipping this, 00:31:46.685 --> 00:31:49.905 but it wasn't upstream, or hadn't been shipped in an upstream release. 00:31:50.085 --> 00:31:55.345 So it was fun. i was playing both in the fedora 42 beta and a nightly build 00:31:55.345 --> 00:31:59.825 of uh the upcoming ubuntu release and they're just they're now just both so 00:31:59.825 --> 00:32:03.405 smooth so fast kind of regardless of where you're using it. 00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:07.820 The other thing that I initially sort of thought, oh, I'm never going to use 00:32:07.820 --> 00:32:10.200 that, probably because I don't want to know what it would tell me. 00:32:10.300 --> 00:32:14.720 But I was talking to my wife, and she actually thought this new feature was really useful. 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.640 It's digital well-being is now being introduced to GNOME. So we see this on our phones. 00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:25.020 And, you know, screen time tracking. You can set screen limits for daily limits. 00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:28.680 Break reminders, so that way maybe get up, move, take an eye break. 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.320 And it comes with little bar graphs to tell you how much you've been using your computer. 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:36.720 It's not super detailed. you don't get per app or anything. But yeah, it's nice to see. 00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:39.840 And it seems like, you know, probably especially in the Wayland world, 00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:44.180 it makes sense for Gnome to implement these kinds of things that are in the 00:32:44.180 --> 00:32:47.420 best place to do so stack-wise. 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.980 And especially some of those like, okay, like the total time and all that, 00:32:51.060 --> 00:32:54.820 but I like having integrated break reminders, especially maybe for like a work 00:32:54.820 --> 00:32:56.080 machine. You kind of just build it in. 00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.440 It's there in the background. You get up, you take your breaks, 00:32:58.500 --> 00:32:59.540 you come back, get more stuff done. 00:32:59.620 --> 00:33:03.940 I definitely get lost in tasks sometimes. I might try it. There's also, 00:33:04.220 --> 00:33:06.440 depending on your machine, it has to be supported. 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.920 I would imagine a lot of ThinkPads are going to work with this. 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:13.220 It's nice to see an option now to limit battery charge to 80% built into the UI. 00:33:13.520 --> 00:33:17.500 Yes. Yes, definitely. I'm already using this on Plasma, and it's been something 00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:18.300 I've been looking forward to. 00:33:18.520 --> 00:33:21.420 And I think all three of us use it on our Pixels now on GrapheneOS. 00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:21.820 True. 00:33:22.080 --> 00:33:25.760 They recently added this. You know, the idea is that you just extend your battery life. 00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:30.880 These lithium-ion batteries really don't benefit from being held at 100% charge. 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.680 And if you're primarily using it at a desk and keeping your laptop plugged in, 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.220 this can help extend the battery life. 00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:40.720 And it won't work on everything as far as I know. And there are other obvious, 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.140 obviously there are other ways to do this. Like we're already doing it on Plasma 00:33:43.140 --> 00:33:45.640 and of course you can do it with other utilities. 00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:50.000 But it's great now to just have it built in right here, a checkbox in a straightforward 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.360 way that users have access to. 00:33:52.420 --> 00:33:56.480 We also have some new apps in GNOME 48. There's a new minimalist audio playback 00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:58.480 tool. And this is exactly what I wanted. 00:33:59.020 --> 00:34:01.120 This is where I think the minimalist approach really works. 00:34:01.860 --> 00:34:06.020 It opens up any audio file that's supported, it displays a waveform, 00:34:06.360 --> 00:34:08.900 and it has a play button with adjustable playback speed. 00:34:09.724 --> 00:34:14.104 So it's great for like listening to a downloaded podcast or a clip or an audio file. 00:34:14.504 --> 00:34:18.104 It doesn't play. It's not a library tool. It's not meant to like do a bunch 00:34:18.104 --> 00:34:23.224 of sophisticated stuff. It just is a quick, simple UI that looks good and is 00:34:23.224 --> 00:34:27.304 very actually useful to use to play audio files, single audio files. 00:34:27.424 --> 00:34:29.764 I get both perspectives here, right? On one hand, you're like, 00:34:29.944 --> 00:34:32.004 okay, this tool is never going to do it a lot. 00:34:32.124 --> 00:34:35.004 Why do we need it? There's like a whole bunch of, you know, there's a thousand 00:34:35.004 --> 00:34:39.984 options in the archive for better or more sophisticated or earlier tools. 00:34:40.544 --> 00:34:45.744 But on the flip side, yeah, right. If you can just have a reasonable scope and 00:34:45.744 --> 00:34:50.024 execute well and just be there, then it becomes a platform feature that you 00:34:50.024 --> 00:34:51.604 can just kind of expect and like, right. 00:34:51.864 --> 00:34:55.124 Shouldn't I be able to just look at this file on my hard drive real quick without 00:34:55.124 --> 00:34:56.304 needing to be like a professional? 00:34:56.624 --> 00:35:00.164 Yeah. I don't need to load Audacity or VLC just to listen to this quick thing. 00:35:00.704 --> 00:35:04.964 We also saw initial support for HDR land. I haven't been able to test that yet. 00:35:05.284 --> 00:35:06.344 No, me either, but I'm curious. 00:35:06.604 --> 00:35:09.904 This is, okay, earlier I said, you know, sometimes we see Gnome take a step back. 00:35:10.164 --> 00:35:13.364 You know, they remove a feature, everybody reacts. And then if you give them 00:35:13.364 --> 00:35:15.784 two releases, they take two or three steps forward. 00:35:16.304 --> 00:35:19.784 And I think this is the case with the text editor. I was initially critical 00:35:19.784 --> 00:35:23.044 of replacing G-Edit with a new, brand new text editor. 00:35:23.224 --> 00:35:25.624 G-Edit has been great for a long time. 00:35:25.924 --> 00:35:29.004 You know, it's one of those I've been able to run for a week. 00:35:30.104 --> 00:35:33.404 With a machine that just had all my notes and it never failed me and it was 00:35:33.404 --> 00:35:34.584 really simple and it was fast. 00:35:34.804 --> 00:35:37.284 Ah, so this is what you do instead of keeping tabs, I see. 00:35:37.384 --> 00:35:42.244 Yeah, that is true, actually. They updated it with a rebuilt text editor that 00:35:42.244 --> 00:35:47.004 had less capabilities, but a nicer interface and, you know, a little bit more 00:35:47.004 --> 00:35:48.684 up-to-date on GNOME design language. 00:35:49.304 --> 00:35:55.684 But with GNOME 48, they have added features back in that were missing and they've 00:35:55.684 --> 00:35:58.204 done it in a way that is honestly a better implementation. 00:35:59.004 --> 00:36:03.324 So they took it away for a bit, but now they take it and now they give it. 00:36:03.504 --> 00:36:07.264 And they give it probably in a better way than it was originally. 00:36:08.004 --> 00:36:12.684 I think when you really dig into it, Gnome has a lot to offer if you haven't 00:36:12.684 --> 00:36:14.304 looked at it in the last couple of years. 00:36:14.864 --> 00:36:20.244 It is surprisingly refined now. It does not have every whistle and every bell 00:36:20.244 --> 00:36:21.744 that my Plasma desktops have. 00:36:21.744 --> 00:36:28.564 But if you build a Linux system, I think around the idea of using the GNOME 00:36:28.564 --> 00:36:30.324 desktop, like Mac users, 00:36:30.624 --> 00:36:35.244 you know, buy Macs and they have a limited set of Macs they can buy and Apple 00:36:35.244 --> 00:36:37.524 has built Mac OS to work in those scenarios. 00:36:38.304 --> 00:36:45.384 I think Gnome is a great desktop environment, especially for single and laptop screens. 00:36:45.624 --> 00:36:49.624 Like at home, I have, I don't know, it's like a 34 inch ultra wide or whatever 00:36:49.624 --> 00:36:51.864 it is. It's not a crazy big one, but it's decently wide. 00:36:53.993 --> 00:36:57.113 It is just a dream to use with Gnome 47. 00:36:58.193 --> 00:37:01.153 But when I try to go to my workstation where I have, you know, 00:37:01.733 --> 00:37:05.793 four or five monitors at different refresh rates and different rotations. 00:37:06.653 --> 00:37:08.013 Plasma is a lot stronger there. 00:37:08.553 --> 00:37:13.953 But if I were to redo my workstation and I were to put a ultra-wide screen in 00:37:13.953 --> 00:37:14.853 there, maybe one other monitor, 00:37:15.053 --> 00:37:21.653 and really focus around the GNOME workflow, I feel like I could land on something 00:37:21.653 --> 00:37:27.613 that could be really, really, really special. It could last me a decade. 00:37:28.193 --> 00:37:31.593 It's very well done, especially if they keep making these small improvements 00:37:31.593 --> 00:37:34.733 with each release, improving the performance, improving the features, 00:37:34.933 --> 00:37:36.473 but making it easier to use. 00:37:37.013 --> 00:37:41.693 You have to, I think, be a little more selective in your hardware and screen 00:37:41.693 --> 00:37:46.353 choices, in my opinion, if you're going to really build a system around GNOME. 00:37:46.873 --> 00:37:50.073 But if you're building one anyways and you can make some of those decisions, 00:37:50.093 --> 00:37:54.033 it is really great. It is really first class, in my opinion. 00:37:54.653 --> 00:37:57.373 I think when you get a little more into the weeds, like I tend to, 00:37:57.513 --> 00:38:00.713 and you need more specific things, like this application always opens on this 00:38:00.713 --> 00:38:05.253 monitor at this size, on this virtual desktop, that's where Plasma is really 00:38:05.253 --> 00:38:08.653 going to, you know, be more of your jam, which is typically where I'm at. 00:38:08.793 --> 00:38:13.893 But some systems, I really enjoy, it's, I know this sounds weird and please 00:38:13.893 --> 00:38:16.433 let me know if anyone out there has ever felt this way. 00:38:16.533 --> 00:38:20.653 But when I use Gnome, still to this day, even though all of the great work that's 00:38:20.653 --> 00:38:25.013 in Plasma, especially with 6.4 that just came out, it's like the noise floor 00:38:25.013 --> 00:38:26.873 is a little bit lower in Gnome. 00:38:27.333 --> 00:38:30.373 It's just a little bit lower noise floor. And for some reason, 00:38:30.653 --> 00:38:34.633 I'm a little more focused on the work at hand often. 00:38:35.533 --> 00:38:40.293 It's not always a problem on Plasma, but there is some sort of difference to 00:38:40.293 --> 00:38:42.373 my attention level between Gnome and Plasma. 00:38:42.433 --> 00:38:45.633 And I genuinely am not sure what that is. And I'd be really curious if anybody 00:38:45.633 --> 00:38:46.533 else has experienced that. 00:38:46.713 --> 00:38:51.753 So I know you and I were both playing around with Gnome OS, which is their development OS for testing. 00:38:51.913 --> 00:38:55.413 It's a way to get your hand on this right away. Definitely should not be used in production. 00:38:56.133 --> 00:38:58.553 Did a little digging there, and yeah, it's not ready for production. 00:38:58.553 --> 00:39:02.973 It's literally not safe to run in production, but it is a great way to try out 00:39:02.973 --> 00:39:04.313 the latest builds of Gnome. 00:39:04.413 --> 00:39:06.873 What'd you think, Wes kicking the tires, giving a look now that you've been 00:39:06.873 --> 00:39:08.873 in the plasma land for so long, what were your impressions? 00:39:09.153 --> 00:39:12.053 Yeah, I've been keeping up in just trying new releases with Gnome, 00:39:12.073 --> 00:39:14.953 but I have not been daily driving it now for, I don't know, a year or two. 00:39:15.533 --> 00:39:18.453 So it was kind of nice to spend a, you know, the better part of a week. 00:39:19.033 --> 00:39:24.873 Uh, I tried Gnome OS, I tried, uh, Fedora 42 beta. I tried Ubuntu, 00:39:26.798 --> 00:39:30.778 Yeah, there's a lot to like. And there's checking up with it after a while. 00:39:30.998 --> 00:39:33.558 You can appreciate the work that they have been doing, right? 00:39:33.658 --> 00:39:38.498 So like these days in GNOME, there's a weather app that gets you hourly weather updates. 00:39:39.078 --> 00:39:42.018 That wasn't there the last time I used it. And I think it fits in that class 00:39:42.018 --> 00:39:46.478 of like platform type features that you would expect, especially on something like a Mac. 00:39:46.638 --> 00:39:50.378 And if you're coming, if your primary computing experience maybe is more phone 00:39:50.378 --> 00:39:52.298 oriented, that's also something you might expect. 00:39:52.478 --> 00:39:56.098 I have to say, I also really appreciate just the support for different world 00:39:56.098 --> 00:39:59.178 clocks now in that menu as well because you know we have friends all around 00:39:59.178 --> 00:40:01.738 the world and so it's really nice to put four or five time zones. 00:40:01.738 --> 00:40:04.778 And friends co-hosts you know whatever yeah there's also 00:40:04.778 --> 00:40:07.718 some fun nerdier stuff i think in gnome 48 00:40:07.718 --> 00:40:11.238 like global shortcuts this has been something oft missed 00:40:11.238 --> 00:40:13.938 in wayland the consequence of not letting every program be a 00:40:13.938 --> 00:40:16.838 key logger is uh global shortcuts don't 00:40:16.838 --> 00:40:19.738 really work and we have to kind of solve it in different ways so it's nice 00:40:19.738 --> 00:40:22.878 to see that uh also i think for machines that 00:40:22.878 --> 00:40:25.838 have like hybrid graphics there's some performance improvements there 00:40:25.838 --> 00:40:28.778 like maybe you've got like a integrated and discreet and 00:40:28.778 --> 00:40:31.538 before maybe you can almost doing a great job of copying all 00:40:31.538 --> 00:40:34.898 the buffers and frames where they needed to go so that's better if 00:40:34.898 --> 00:40:38.658 you don't or can't go the single display lifestyle also 00:40:38.658 --> 00:40:45.178 on the path to things like hdr support i noticed that there's now a gdctl which 00:40:45.178 --> 00:40:50.618 is a cool little gnome display control and you know there's all kinds of stuff 00:40:50.618 --> 00:40:54.038 that had sort of evolved for some of these things in the x world and now it's 00:40:54.038 --> 00:40:58.558 going to hit or miss depending on what Wayland implementation you're using, when and why, 00:40:59.218 --> 00:41:02.518 and so it's just neat because I can see what monitors are there, 00:41:02.618 --> 00:41:06.018 you can adjust stuff like how much luminance, how bright the monitor is and 00:41:06.018 --> 00:41:08.058 you can probably enable HDR stuff maybe this way. 00:41:09.758 --> 00:41:13.158 Shown in a cool little unicode tree layout 00:41:13.158 --> 00:41:17.218 that makes it very clear so i don't know small but big 00:41:17.218 --> 00:41:20.158 if you want to do weird stuff with your linux desktop or have find 00:41:20.158 --> 00:41:23.758 control or automate or script things oh yeah 00:41:23.758 --> 00:41:27.258 and also maybe small but uh appreciated 00:41:27.258 --> 00:41:30.078 in terms of i really like how far you can get 00:41:30.078 --> 00:41:34.138 with vanilla you know maybe 00:41:34.138 --> 00:41:37.558 let's say under five extensions usually like one or two for me but like let's 00:41:37.558 --> 00:41:40.938 say under five just to be more reasonable about it and maybe include chris or 00:41:40.938 --> 00:41:47.278 have a chance of including chris in this so having a new font i i really like 00:41:47.278 --> 00:41:50.938 that so long cantarelle um yep it served us. 00:41:50.938 --> 00:41:52.778 Well it's not a huge change but it's nice to see. 00:41:52.778 --> 00:41:56.418 Yeah i i think it just for me especially with like the improved text editing 00:41:56.418 --> 00:42:01.878 and stuff it means like i'm not opining for swapping in a bunch of custom stuff 00:42:01.878 --> 00:42:06.818 to have like a decent coding experience anymore and that's one more one fewer 00:42:06.818 --> 00:42:10.478 change i don't have to make if i just wanted to get up and going with a linux system. 00:42:10.478 --> 00:42:13.638 The default experience especially for you 00:42:13.638 --> 00:42:16.418 know friends and family that don't need all the bells 00:42:16.418 --> 00:42:19.838 and whistles that you get through extensions or that you get through just features 00:42:19.838 --> 00:42:24.258 built into plasma i know i'm hitting this point but i i have to say i think 00:42:24.258 --> 00:42:28.078 it's it's a better experience than you can get from the store if you give the 00:42:28.078 --> 00:42:34.218 machine that runs linux with gnome 48 they get a system that updates incrementally 00:42:34.218 --> 00:42:38.258 and it's always updating and it's always getting a little bit better. 00:42:39.098 --> 00:42:43.418 And I mean that at the whole OS level. Think about the macOS experience today 00:42:43.418 --> 00:42:49.258 compared to a lean, mean GNOME 48 Fedora system, for example, or Ubuntu. 00:42:50.506 --> 00:42:54.126 You get a Mac. First of all, you're going to get slammed about signing into 00:42:54.126 --> 00:42:55.466 iCloud and all of this kind of stuff. 00:42:55.586 --> 00:42:58.646 And then it's going to be syncing in the background. They don't even know what syncs and doesn't sync. 00:42:58.866 --> 00:43:03.026 But then as you go to use the Mac over time, you end up with a bunch of applications, 00:43:03.026 --> 00:43:06.426 all of which have their own individual self-updaters, all of which prompt at 00:43:06.426 --> 00:43:09.226 their own individual times. It doesn't matter what you're doing. 00:43:09.686 --> 00:43:13.846 Then you'll also discover if you fired up after a few days of not using it, 00:43:14.006 --> 00:43:17.406 the system just consumes a ton of resources, syncing your photos, 00:43:17.646 --> 00:43:20.166 scanning faces, indexing the hard drive. 00:43:20.746 --> 00:43:25.246 Uploading or downloading changes from iCloud, all of which it does without any 00:43:25.246 --> 00:43:29.766 of your permission, all of which consumes resources and power and it slows down the system. 00:43:29.946 --> 00:43:32.666 And then God forbid you want to have a screenshot app because you're going to 00:43:32.666 --> 00:43:34.746 have to reauthorize that thing every 30 days. 00:43:34.886 --> 00:43:39.606 And they made UAC look like it was an experiment because they've turned up the 00:43:39.606 --> 00:43:42.846 Vista experience to an 11 on recent Mac OS and now you're getting hit in the 00:43:42.846 --> 00:43:44.946 face with every little thing for permissions to everything. 00:43:44.946 --> 00:43:47.966 And sometimes you've got to go in the system thing and go into the settings 00:43:47.966 --> 00:43:50.206 and go into the privacy area and add something there. 00:43:50.286 --> 00:43:53.966 And who even knows why they have users doing that? They simply just don't want you doing it. 00:43:54.026 --> 00:43:59.426 And it is not a good, consistent experience, and it is user hostile. 00:43:59.646 --> 00:44:05.226 Where GNOME 48 is this lean, mean, fast performance system that continuously 00:44:05.226 --> 00:44:10.646 updates in small increments versus macOS, which has the smacky in the face big updates. 00:44:10.646 --> 00:44:12.926 Oh, and by the way, you've got to update all your third-party apps, 00:44:12.946 --> 00:44:15.186 and 90% of them are going to charge you something to update them. 00:44:15.306 --> 00:44:17.426 And if you don't, they're just simply not going to work, or you're not going 00:44:17.426 --> 00:44:19.986 to be able to run the new version anymore, which won't support the thing you need. 00:44:20.206 --> 00:44:22.326 And that's the story on macOS these days. 00:44:22.626 --> 00:44:26.066 That's the reality of it. Yeah, they're lean, mean systems. 00:44:26.726 --> 00:44:29.786 Sure, they can get 18 hours of battery life, but that's your experience during 00:44:29.786 --> 00:44:32.266 that 18 hours. Who wants it? 00:44:33.009 --> 00:44:35.949 This it's an aggravation you do not need. 00:44:36.189 --> 00:44:41.089 And none of that exists because this all the software on the system is centrally 00:44:41.089 --> 00:44:43.909 updated by the package manager or by Flatpak. 00:44:44.049 --> 00:44:49.329 And all of that is just is handled by Gnome software, mostly in the background. 00:44:49.329 --> 00:44:51.329 So the end user doesn't even have to think about it. 00:44:51.429 --> 00:44:57.089 Then major updates come along, but they're not like swapping out the sound system. 00:44:57.189 --> 00:44:59.049 Right. That happens once a decade 00:44:59.049 --> 00:45:03.649 in Linux. We make a once-in-a-decade transition to a new display server. 00:45:03.789 --> 00:45:06.589 We make a once-in-a-decade transition to Rust tooling. 00:45:06.969 --> 00:45:11.129 These things happen, and then we incrementally adopt them. Not in macOS. 00:45:11.369 --> 00:45:16.189 Not in Windows. It's smacky in the face with tons of changes all at once, 00:45:16.229 --> 00:45:17.669 and you better just take it. 00:45:17.689 --> 00:45:23.149 And if you don't, we're going to nag you constantly for years to update your system. 00:45:23.829 --> 00:45:28.069 And that's the experience. None of that. It's serene. It's peaceful. 00:45:28.829 --> 00:45:33.149 You're focused on your work and your updates, like security improvements and 00:45:33.149 --> 00:45:37.789 new features, they come in slow and they come in incrementally and they come 00:45:37.789 --> 00:45:40.489 in at your pace in one place. 00:45:40.969 --> 00:45:45.569 The system isn't updating to some sort of cloud service that they need because 00:45:45.569 --> 00:45:48.629 they can't sell any more devices and now they need a new way to grift off their 00:45:48.629 --> 00:45:50.989 users so that way the stock price goes up cloud service. 00:45:51.969 --> 00:45:56.449 It's whatever you choose to use. And maybe it's nothing. Maybe you just want everything local. 00:45:56.609 --> 00:46:00.529 That is fine. It's not going to force you to log into a cloud service when you first start it up. 00:46:00.669 --> 00:46:03.529 We didn't even mention any AI features in our review. 00:46:03.889 --> 00:46:07.749 Right. I mean, it really is. It's dramatic. 00:46:08.069 --> 00:46:12.089 It reminds me now of it's not quite the right analogy, but you know how I always 00:46:12.089 --> 00:46:13.169 strive for a car analogy. 00:46:13.509 --> 00:46:17.769 It makes me think about these cars that all have the capacitive touch surfaces 00:46:17.769 --> 00:46:22.009 and it's all screens and no stocks and end users keep saying, 00:46:22.209 --> 00:46:24.229 hey, man, I just want a few buttons and dials back. 00:46:24.629 --> 00:46:27.149 I just want to keep it simple. Like, it doesn't all have to be analog, 00:46:27.389 --> 00:46:29.129 but I would like some buttons and dials back. 00:46:29.649 --> 00:46:34.749 I would like a few controls, and I just need somebody that makes a decent, balanced choice. 00:46:34.869 --> 00:46:39.569 And sometimes maybe they err a little bit too far on the capacitive touch, but bring it back. 00:46:39.669 --> 00:46:43.229 And that's where GNOME is, is they're recognizing where the user's at. 00:46:43.349 --> 00:46:48.149 They have a vision, and they strive for that vision, but they walk it back in 00:46:48.149 --> 00:46:50.929 certain areas to meet the users where they're actually at. 00:46:50.929 --> 00:46:55.949 And I think long term, when you look at the trajectory since GNOME 13 and GNOME 00:46:55.949 --> 00:47:01.769 12, where this real identity has emerged, they sometimes they err on the side 00:47:01.769 --> 00:47:04.569 of vision, but then they find a compromise spot. 00:47:04.749 --> 00:47:09.989 And what's what's come out of this is one of the absolute first in class desktop 00:47:09.989 --> 00:47:14.789 experiences for any desktop commercial or free software. It's not necessarily 00:47:14.789 --> 00:47:17.229 for everybody, but man, is it really good. 00:47:17.489 --> 00:47:20.549 And I just think that's going to make the next distros, the next Fedoras, 00:47:20.669 --> 00:47:24.829 the next Ubuntus, Arches, and everything else that ship these desktops, 00:47:24.949 --> 00:47:27.649 they're just going to be really some of the best releases. 00:47:31.021 --> 00:47:34.341 Well, are you thinking about stack and sats? Maybe you want to boost the show 00:47:34.341 --> 00:47:35.721 just to have fun with the boost. 00:47:36.021 --> 00:47:41.601 There's a lot of ways online to get into Bitcoin, and I don't think you want to use most of them. 00:47:41.761 --> 00:47:45.541 That's really the big problem Bitcoin has is there's just a lot of crap out 00:47:45.541 --> 00:47:50.161 there and there's a lot of crap coins, too. So the way you solve for this is 00:47:50.161 --> 00:47:54.781 you tune out the noise and you focus on a Bitcoin only company. They got one stack. 00:47:54.941 --> 00:47:58.661 They got one thing they do. They're not screwing around with meme coins. 00:47:58.661 --> 00:48:02.501 They're not playing around with, you know, technological blockchain projects. 00:48:02.661 --> 00:48:04.881 You don't get emails about the latest airdrop. 00:48:05.061 --> 00:48:09.521 No, you do not. And that's River. And if you go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash 00:48:09.521 --> 00:48:11.321 River, that is our affiliate ID. 00:48:11.781 --> 00:48:15.041 They make it easy to get started with Bitcoin in three simple steps. 00:48:15.041 --> 00:48:17.921 And they are on the Lightning Network, too. So then you can send it over to 00:48:17.921 --> 00:48:21.921 a podcasting 2.0 app and boost, or you can move it around however you like. 00:48:22.321 --> 00:48:25.981 They have a lot of really great features too. They have free auto stacking. 00:48:26.841 --> 00:48:30.801 So then you can just sort of average out the volatility by just auto stacking 00:48:30.801 --> 00:48:32.781 when price goes up, when the price goes down. 00:48:33.361 --> 00:48:36.781 They allow you to set up account beneficiaries should something happen to you. 00:48:36.961 --> 00:48:40.461 They automatically have tax and performance reporting that they generate for you. 00:48:40.761 --> 00:48:43.621 They have target price orders. So you can set a price and say, 00:48:43.701 --> 00:48:45.461 when it gets to that, you just automatically buy. 00:48:46.481 --> 00:48:50.521 And zero fees for withdrawing. And then a feature that I know Wes loves and 00:48:50.521 --> 00:48:55.161 I can't wait till they bring to business accounts is 3.8% Bitcoin interest on 00:48:55.161 --> 00:48:56.141 your cash that you hold there. 00:48:56.421 --> 00:48:57.241 Yeah, that's pretty great. 00:48:57.461 --> 00:48:58.861 And that cash is FDIC insured. 00:48:59.101 --> 00:49:02.721 Yep, have a bank account, but it lets you turn interest to sats. Why not? Yeah. 00:49:03.081 --> 00:49:07.081 So we really like River. We use it. And if you want to play around with this 00:49:07.081 --> 00:49:11.401 or even if you want to start sacking sats for yourself, I think it's the way to go. 00:49:12.361 --> 00:49:14.121 JupiterBroadcasting.com slash River. 00:49:17.541 --> 00:49:20.901 Well, every week we get boosts into the show from all over the world, 00:49:20.901 --> 00:49:25.601 and we wanted to say a thank you this week and have one of your hosts be on 00:49:25.601 --> 00:49:29.101 the other side of the world to say thanks by reading some of them. 00:49:32.121 --> 00:49:37.761 And this week's baller booster, the dude abides, 42,000 satoshis. 00:49:44.581 --> 00:49:49.601 The dude comes in and says hey hope this makes it into today's boost pool i 00:49:49.601 --> 00:49:53.481 have nothing specific to note but just wanted to say thanks for the company. 00:49:53.481 --> 00:50:00.161 Well thank you the dudipides i just watched um the big lebowski for the first 00:50:00.161 --> 00:50:06.501 time on my trip back from planet nix what yep yep wow uh i enjoyed it quite 00:50:06.501 --> 00:50:07.801 a bit and had never seen it. 00:50:07.901 --> 00:50:11.461 And I thought, well, uh, an airplane flight is the best time to watch it. 00:50:11.541 --> 00:50:15.201 And so, uh, now I get the reference to do to bides and appreciate the support. 00:50:15.321 --> 00:50:16.681 Thank you for being our baller booster. 00:50:16.901 --> 00:50:20.161 You are a top supporter for episode four. Nope. Wow. 00:50:20.541 --> 00:50:24.561 Six hundred and seven. It all blurs together, I guess. Well, 00:50:24.701 --> 00:50:28.281 there is derivation dingus and he comes in with 21,000 sats. 00:50:31.185 --> 00:50:35.285 He says, I really enjoyed the eBPF episode and wouldn't mind more like it. 00:50:35.385 --> 00:50:39.625 I would love to do a TUI challenge as well. Oh, boy. All right, 00:50:39.665 --> 00:50:40.585 I'm going to start writing these down. 00:50:40.705 --> 00:50:41.065 You better. 00:50:41.425 --> 00:50:43.685 All right, that's a one plus one for the TUI challenge. 00:50:43.845 --> 00:50:46.405 Wait, why aren't you using a TUI to record that? 00:50:47.585 --> 00:50:49.225 Because we're not doing the challenge yet. 00:50:49.285 --> 00:50:49.525 Oh, right. 00:50:49.705 --> 00:50:56.265 Not yet. He says, there's so many good TUI applications written in... Rust these days. 00:50:56.805 --> 00:50:58.625 I was worried you were about to say Golang. 00:50:59.305 --> 00:51:02.525 Another variant could be the no mouse challenge. 00:51:02.905 --> 00:51:04.005 Jeez, you guys. 00:51:04.425 --> 00:51:08.505 That's good. The idea is you have one week to design your perfect keyboard-driven 00:51:08.505 --> 00:51:10.165 tiling desktop window manager setup. 00:51:10.465 --> 00:51:14.105 And then the following week, you have to use it on your main PC. 00:51:14.365 --> 00:51:18.465 Points are awarded based on keyboard friendliness and terminal 2E apps. 00:51:18.745 --> 00:51:23.305 Hey, do you remember how we beat those System76 folks at Lasertag and they promised 00:51:23.305 --> 00:51:26.885 us some really nice keyboards in exchange for beating them? I think that would 00:51:26.885 --> 00:51:28.045 be a perfect match for this. 00:51:28.045 --> 00:51:32.525 Oh, yeah, and don't they have, like, a kind of a tiling-focused desktop, too? 00:51:32.645 --> 00:51:32.885 Mm-hmm. 00:51:32.945 --> 00:51:33.565 They do. 00:51:34.145 --> 00:51:37.345 I should be shooting something there, I guess. I do like that. 00:51:37.385 --> 00:51:39.965 He says, if you break down and use a mouse, though, say, three times over the 00:51:39.965 --> 00:51:44.085 course of the week, the punishment is you have to adjust your .bash RC to pipe 00:51:44.085 --> 00:51:46.405 all terminal output through lolcat for a month. 00:51:47.465 --> 00:51:49.045 A month. Oof. 00:51:49.185 --> 00:51:49.965 That's pretty great. 00:51:50.045 --> 00:51:50.385 Brutal. 00:51:50.625 --> 00:51:51.405 That's pretty great. 00:51:51.465 --> 00:51:53.165 Tony, I'm just going to throw the mouse away. 00:51:53.505 --> 00:51:54.345 Oh, man. 00:51:56.365 --> 00:51:58.765 Electrician boosted with 10,000 cents, 00:52:01.725 --> 00:52:07.725 I just wanted to take a minute to tell my favorite podcasters about my favorite version of Linux. 00:52:08.205 --> 00:52:14.705 Project Bluefin is awesome. It's all the best parts of Linux and none of the suck. Rock on. 00:52:14.965 --> 00:52:20.085 Love that. Project Bluefin does seem like it's really carving out a very special 00:52:20.085 --> 00:52:25.505 place in the Linux space bringing something unique and helping Often people leverage a, I guess, 00:52:25.665 --> 00:52:28.725 cloud-first, I hate that word, but I think it is the right word, 00:52:28.785 --> 00:52:31.805 a cloud-first workflow to build their own private distribution. 00:52:31.945 --> 00:52:33.565 Hey, hey, I think it's cloud-native. 00:52:33.705 --> 00:52:38.085 Oh, yeah, that is it. Right. I just, for some reason, can't bring myself to say it. 00:52:38.225 --> 00:52:41.505 Oh, and our electrical magician friend here was Boostin from Podverse. Great. 00:52:41.645 --> 00:52:48.385 Hey, nice to see. Thank you for the boost. User 47's here with a row of ducks. That's 2,222 sats. 00:52:49.645 --> 00:52:56.265 I'm excited for the TUI Challenge. Potential episode name. Some variation of a Hawk Tui joke. Oh, man. 00:52:58.785 --> 00:53:02.645 All right, putting down a number, a number two. So it's now two, 00:53:02.825 --> 00:53:05.705 I guess, plus two for the Tui challenge. I feel like this is happening, boys. 00:53:07.405 --> 00:53:08.165 It's happening. 00:53:09.265 --> 00:53:11.905 Well, adversary has sent in 10,000 Satoshis. 00:53:14.986 --> 00:53:18.906 I tried learning Nix in the past, but got distracted. Gonna try again, 00:53:19.026 --> 00:53:21.426 though, and use it with my coding projects. 00:53:21.846 --> 00:53:25.066 Hey, you know, one way to always get started is just to use it on the distro 00:53:25.066 --> 00:53:28.066 you already have. You don't have to switch to NixOS to enjoy Nix. 00:53:28.226 --> 00:53:31.966 And feel free to hop into the Nix nerds room if you want some help. 00:53:32.086 --> 00:53:32.646 Yeah, totally. 00:53:33.746 --> 00:53:36.166 Shy Fox boosts in with 10,000 cents. 00:53:38.626 --> 00:53:41.766 Oh gosh, it's another plus one for the Dewey challenge. 00:53:42.346 --> 00:53:49.886 My dream would be to have a mainframe terminal inspired station running only 2e or cli apps oh. 00:53:49.886 --> 00:53:52.866 Man and wouldn't it be awesome if you could have like old retro terminals around 00:53:52.866 --> 00:53:54.126 the house to interface with it. 00:53:54.126 --> 00:53:59.606 Yes it would okay see shy fox is helping us out though because uh they include 00:53:59.606 --> 00:54:04.046 a link to a github awesome 2e's page with a whole bunch of other links to 2e 00:54:04.046 --> 00:54:05.766 projects that we should probably go look through i. 00:54:05.766 --> 00:54:09.506 Think i knew about this but forgot so i really appreciate this this really great timing. 00:54:09.966 --> 00:54:12.946 Yeah, here's a 2E for Podman containers. Great, great. Already, see? 00:54:13.086 --> 00:54:13.526 See, we're done. 00:54:14.166 --> 00:54:18.946 I have a question for the audience here. How many people are doing the full-time 2E thing as is? 00:54:19.066 --> 00:54:22.546 Is this challenge just not going to be a challenge for you? If you do that, 00:54:22.666 --> 00:54:25.166 I want to know about it. You can teach me a few things. 00:54:25.446 --> 00:54:31.126 Yeah, let us hear about it. Alright, so that's a total of plus three now for 00:54:31.126 --> 00:54:32.506 the 2E challenge. Thank you, Shy Fox. 00:54:32.746 --> 00:54:38.426 Magnolia Mayhem's here with a wonderful 11,700 700 sats. 00:54:40.466 --> 00:54:45.526 Well, if I were Linus for a day, I'd do what Slackware did, and I'd rev to 7.1. 00:54:45.686 --> 00:54:48.346 For no reason but to make people just ask questions. 00:54:49.426 --> 00:54:52.366 That's nice. I think that's what he does anyways, though. 00:54:53.306 --> 00:54:55.366 Also, I loved the architecture of 00:54:55.366 --> 00:55:00.366 BlackBerry's QNX OS, which was an Android-compatible Unix microkernel OS. 00:55:00.586 --> 00:55:05.346 I used it on their tablet and their BB Passport. I just have to start working 00:55:05.346 --> 00:55:08.246 on a microkernel with Linux for one-to-one binary support. 00:55:08.466 --> 00:55:11.486 It shouldn't be that hard, since Linux is already kind of a hybrid OS, 00:55:11.666 --> 00:55:14.526 but that base kernel is already stupidly bloated. 00:55:14.986 --> 00:55:18.526 Also, it just tickles the tisms for me if it goes the right way. 00:55:18.946 --> 00:55:23.366 You know, I think, although I'm not positive, but I think my Volkswagen GTI 00:55:23.366 --> 00:55:25.886 is still using QNX for the infotainment system. 00:55:26.046 --> 00:55:26.826 Oh, yeah, sure. 00:55:27.086 --> 00:55:30.906 Yeah, and I think it's still just as good and responsive as some of the stuff 00:55:30.906 --> 00:55:33.066 in cars that are new, brand new cars. 00:55:33.066 --> 00:55:37.426 You know okay this might be heresy but mayhem's got me thinking with this whole 00:55:37.426 --> 00:55:40.846 version number stuff right like um why don't we get more nerdy and go instead 00:55:40.846 --> 00:55:42.686 of semver we go complex numbers. 00:55:42.686 --> 00:55:43.486 Yeah i got the. 00:55:43.486 --> 00:55:47.646 Real part you know for the major versions in the complex and the imaginary part for the minor. 00:55:47.646 --> 00:55:52.406 We could just do hex oh yeah mix that in also another plus one all right we're 00:55:52.406 --> 00:55:56.346 up to four now for the tui challenge boys and another plus one for regular deep 00:55:56.346 --> 00:55:59.586 dives he says overall he got 16 points on the BST challenge, 00:56:01.886 --> 00:56:07.026 very nice thank you very much for the boost appreciate it mayhem you're always 00:56:07.026 --> 00:56:10.626 great to hear from also I'll get hybrid too because he's another guy that's 00:56:10.626 --> 00:56:13.246 always great to hear from hybrid sarcasms here with 10,000 sats, 00:56:17.350 --> 00:56:20.650 The musical section in the members bootleg is always just a chef's kiss. 00:56:20.830 --> 00:56:23.490 Here's appreciation for one of the many reasons to be a JB party member. 00:56:24.310 --> 00:56:27.450 Thank you for that shout out. We have, um, we've been having a little bit of 00:56:27.450 --> 00:56:28.750 fun in the member stream. 00:56:28.950 --> 00:56:31.770 And if you haven't gotten a subscription yet and you want to, 00:56:32.530 --> 00:56:34.830 you might check it out. Linux unplugged.com slash membership. 00:56:35.230 --> 00:56:40.110 We, uh, we make a lot of content for the members, a whole lot of show in there. We're about an hour. 00:56:40.270 --> 00:56:42.730 We're clocking in about an hour 42 for the members version of the show right 00:56:42.730 --> 00:56:45.810 now. There's a lot. It's not dead air. It's not dead air. 00:56:45.810 --> 00:56:49.410 Look at Hybrid paying us to advertise our members feed. 00:56:49.610 --> 00:56:52.930 He really is a champ. I really appreciate that. Thank you, everybody, for the boost. 00:56:53.410 --> 00:56:56.470 That's all of them above the 2,000 sat cutoff. And, of course, 00:56:56.630 --> 00:56:58.010 thank you to our sat streamers. 00:56:58.270 --> 00:57:02.350 You came in like champs, 35 of you streaming those sats. As you listened to 00:57:02.350 --> 00:57:05.750 the podcast, you stacked 56,243 sats. 00:57:06.010 --> 00:57:11.230 When we combine that with our total senders, all right, I'm, uh... 00:57:17.030 --> 00:57:21.210 I'm not feeling too bad, though. I mean, we had a pretty good week last week. 00:57:21.390 --> 00:57:25.410 It's a total of 182,942 sats. 00:57:25.630 --> 00:57:28.630 That, of course, is split between the three of us. Editor Drew, 00:57:28.890 --> 00:57:31.690 a little bit goes to the podcast index, and a little bit goes to the podcast 00:57:31.690 --> 00:57:33.750 developer that you boosted. 00:57:34.310 --> 00:57:39.110 And we appreciate everybody at least boosting and sending some support our way 00:57:39.110 --> 00:57:42.610 or as a member because it matters more than ever right now. 00:57:42.690 --> 00:57:45.370 And if you want to participate, it's pretty simple. You could use something 00:57:45.370 --> 00:57:48.930 like River, jupiterbroadcasting.com slash River, or the Strike app, 00:57:49.070 --> 00:57:51.830 or Bitcoin Well. Those are like my three places to get sats. 00:57:52.030 --> 00:57:55.610 And then you send them over to a podcasting 2.0 app, and you start boosting away. 00:57:55.970 --> 00:57:59.170 And it will read your message in a future show. And it means a lot to us to 00:57:59.170 --> 00:58:01.090 support the show directly. We're an independent show. 00:58:01.430 --> 00:58:06.030 You know, we're not trying to pump the advertisers by going to YouTube and doing video live streams. 00:58:06.170 --> 00:58:10.550 And we're not going the dynamic ad insertion route other than for jokes from time to time. 00:58:11.670 --> 00:58:15.990 We're trying to do it the right way and keep you our most important and biggest 00:58:15.990 --> 00:58:19.970 customer so thank you everybody who participates either as a member or as a 00:58:19.970 --> 00:58:21.310 booster, it really means a lot. 00:58:23.186 --> 00:58:28.026 So one of the things that I've decided to do on Gnome is embrace ULauncher. 00:58:28.106 --> 00:58:30.226 And we haven't talked about ULauncher in ages on this show. 00:58:30.346 --> 00:58:32.966 So I thought it was worth a check-in because it's interesting in the Wayland 00:58:32.966 --> 00:58:34.266 world now how this all works. 00:58:34.926 --> 00:58:40.906 Now, Gnome's been making specific strides on making the launcher when you hit the meta key faster. 00:58:41.206 --> 00:58:46.246 So you really could just get by using that and it would be just fine for launching and finding stuff. 00:58:46.866 --> 00:58:51.366 The reason why I'm not a huge fan of it is it zooms out the desktop and it changes 00:58:51.366 --> 00:58:53.706 the whole UI. and it's a big visual change. 00:58:53.906 --> 00:58:57.326 Yeah, versus just like a separate launcher that stacks right on top. 00:58:57.446 --> 00:59:00.666 And that's really the only reason I decided to start looking into Ulauncher again. 00:59:01.186 --> 00:59:04.586 And I'm really pleased to see with the direction this has gone. 00:59:04.866 --> 00:59:06.686 I'll have a guide linked in the show notes. 00:59:07.146 --> 00:59:10.806 Right now, although this may be changing in 48, but right now there is a little 00:59:10.806 --> 00:59:13.686 bit of a workaround to get it to actually fire off in Wayland. 00:59:14.046 --> 00:59:17.566 You basically have to go set up a custom hotkey. Pretty simple. 00:59:17.686 --> 00:59:19.226 It's like two, three steps. 00:59:20.286 --> 00:59:22.946 Ulauncher is GPL3. which is 00:59:22.946 --> 00:59:26.646 great to see but what really made it stick for me surprise 00:59:26.646 --> 00:59:29.726 surprise is it has extension support and there's 00:59:29.726 --> 00:59:32.666 a few that are just handy to have if you are in 00:59:32.666 --> 00:59:37.446 work chats it is useful to have emojis so i can hit control space which brings 00:59:37.446 --> 00:59:43.246 up u launcher instantly and then if i hit gm that goes into emoji mode and i 00:59:43.246 --> 00:59:47.466 can type the name of any emoji like fire or whatever and then it will immediately 00:59:47.466 --> 00:59:51.466 copy it to my clipboard and i can alt you know i go right back because i don't even have, 00:59:52.126 --> 00:59:54.186 I'm right back in the chat I'm in and I can just hit paste. 00:59:55.521 --> 00:59:59.261 Also, I've fallen back on using Todoist. It has brilliant integration, 00:59:59.441 --> 01:00:00.921 several different extensions for Todoist. 01:00:01.881 --> 01:00:06.221 So you can manage and add your tasks right from your launcher as you think of it. 01:00:06.861 --> 01:00:10.721 Another small thing. I add an extension, just turns off my screen. 01:00:10.861 --> 01:00:12.721 I start typing the words turn. 01:00:13.221 --> 01:00:15.801 By the time I get to turn, there's an option to turn off my screen. 01:00:15.921 --> 01:00:17.301 I hit enter, my screen sleeps. 01:00:17.461 --> 01:00:18.201 That's pretty nice. 01:00:19.341 --> 01:00:23.421 And I've really found the Obsidian extension very handy. 01:00:23.421 --> 01:00:28.421 And additionally the home assistant extension very handy i type ha and then 01:00:28.421 --> 01:00:32.141 turn off living room lamp and it connects to my home assistant instance and 01:00:32.141 --> 01:00:37.381 turns off my lights right from my desktop launcher brilliant yeah it's nice so. 01:00:37.381 --> 01:00:40.181 You didn't consider just running k runner on you know. 01:00:40.181 --> 01:00:45.281 You know i love k runner but it for me it sometimes fires up a little too slow 01:00:45.281 --> 01:00:49.241 like let's try it right here ready so i'll do it right now okay that was pretty 01:00:49.241 --> 01:00:51.901 fast actually every now and then i get like Like, 01:00:52.001 --> 01:00:54.281 I don't know, like maybe the process has just been like, you know, 01:00:54.641 --> 01:00:55.881 nice. I don't know what's happened. 01:00:56.581 --> 01:00:59.321 But it just takes, it's chunky before it comes up. 01:00:59.441 --> 01:01:00.981 They're not having that problem with you, Launcher. 01:01:01.141 --> 01:01:05.161 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then you add these extensions and it's just 01:01:05.161 --> 01:01:08.201 really handy. And it's not that GNOME has to have it. 01:01:08.841 --> 01:01:11.501 But if you, like me, don't like the whole zoom out, zoom in thing every time 01:01:11.501 --> 01:01:13.801 you hit the meta key to launch an application, it is pretty nice. 01:01:13.881 --> 01:01:14.821 And then you have these extensions. 01:01:15.241 --> 01:01:19.461 It's part of great. And it's nice to, you know, check in with an app that I used way back in the day. 01:01:19.521 --> 01:01:23.501 And it's still going, still proceeding. The community is still building extensions today. 01:01:24.141 --> 01:01:28.821 Tons of LLM plugins. Like if you have a local llama instance or open AI or Claude 01:01:28.821 --> 01:01:32.021 stuff too. So you can, or perplexity, a couple of extensions. 01:01:32.261 --> 01:01:35.601 So you can just ask perplexity a question in the launcher and then it comes back with the results. 01:01:36.161 --> 01:01:40.441 Yeah. So there's a lot of stuff to play around with if you are so inclined. 01:01:40.581 --> 01:01:43.761 It looks like at least from the couple of extensions I peaked at, 01:01:43.921 --> 01:01:45.901 they're written in Python. So that should be pretty approachable too. 01:01:46.041 --> 01:01:46.981 If someone wants to write their own. 01:01:47.641 --> 01:01:50.801 Okay. Yeah. That does sound right. Checks out. The poll thing is probably mostly 01:01:50.801 --> 01:01:52.861 Python, to be honest with you. That's okay. 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:56.400 That's fine by us. It's not a big deal, Wes. Stop getting angry. 01:01:56.540 --> 01:01:58.880 No, I'm a snake fan. 01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:03.600 All right, we want to know what you think about John's proposed changes for 01:02:03.600 --> 01:02:06.180 the next Ubuntu, especially shipping the Rust utilities. 01:02:06.240 --> 01:02:09.040 And if you are concerned about it for some reason that we didn't touch on, 01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:12.560 we'd like to hear that feedback or if you support what they're doing. 01:02:12.820 --> 01:02:13.600 Go try it out. 01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:17.160 Yeah, I'm really curious to know what our community in particular thinks of these changes. 01:02:17.340 --> 01:02:21.040 Also, I'm looking for your tips to natively sign and date PDFs on Linux with 01:02:21.040 --> 01:02:23.220 a desktop application if possible. 01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:26.240 Please boost that in as well. And 01:02:26.240 --> 01:02:30.380 you're always welcome to join us on a Sunday. We do the show at 10 a.m. 01:02:30.740 --> 01:02:33.600 Pacific, which is like what, noon Eastern? 01:02:34.040 --> 01:02:36.860 I don't know. We have it at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. 01:02:37.120 --> 01:02:38.000 I think 1 p.m., right? 01:02:38.260 --> 01:02:38.960 Okay, that sounds right. 01:02:43.420 --> 01:02:49.220 Either way, links to what we talked about today are over at linuxunplugged.com slash 607. 01:02:49.580 --> 01:02:52.800 You'll also find information about our Mumble, our Matrix, which are always 01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:55.640 going, as well as our membership page. 01:02:55.780 --> 01:02:59.020 And of course, you can find our back catalog and a bunch of great shows over 01:02:59.020 --> 01:03:00.980 at jupiterbroadcasting.com. 01:03:01.100 --> 01:03:03.840 The launch has a phone and we want you to call it now. 01:03:04.160 --> 01:03:07.640 Yeah, details in the launch. You can call in and leave us your voicemails. 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:12.320 And we're going to have a special phone line for our members that I'll be announcing soon as well. 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:16.360 Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Unplugged program. 01:03:16.720 --> 01:03:20.960 And we'll see you back here next Tuesday. As in Sunday!
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