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Back to Root

Apr 26, 2026
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After 26 years, we return to our roots and reflect on why LinuxFest Northwest is still a special event.

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Support LINUX Unplugged

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Transcript

WEBVTT 00:00:11.363 --> 00:00:16.103 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.283 --> 00:00:16.923 My name is Wes. 00:00:17.123 --> 00:00:18.003 And my name is Brentley. 00:00:18.203 --> 00:00:22.763 Hello, gentlemen. Good to see you. And hello, everyone here at LinuxFest Northwest 2026. 00:00:23.383 --> 00:00:23.743 Woo! 00:00:25.143 --> 00:00:29.423 Hello there. In the beautiful Bellingham, Washington, in the very corner of 00:00:29.423 --> 00:00:32.123 the majestic Pacific Northwest at the Bellingham Technical College. 00:00:32.163 --> 00:00:34.463 And it is LinuxFest Northwest 2026. 00:00:34.783 --> 00:00:39.383 And this is a very special year. We'll get more into that in just a little bit. 00:00:39.383 --> 00:00:42.083 We also are going to set the ground rules for the BSD Challenge, 00:00:42.103 --> 00:00:43.783 which actually kicks off next week. 00:00:43.943 --> 00:00:44.603 Uh-oh. 00:00:44.923 --> 00:00:47.303 The show don't slow down. The show don't slow down. 00:00:47.423 --> 00:00:49.163 You brought your flash drives, right? 00:00:49.543 --> 00:00:52.743 We should get going, right? And then, of course, as always, we'll round it out 00:00:52.743 --> 00:00:54.923 with some boos, some great picks, and a lot more. 00:00:55.123 --> 00:00:58.683 We don't have a mumble room with us, but we do have producer Jeff. Hey, PJ. 00:00:59.043 --> 00:00:59.403 Hello. 00:00:59.783 --> 00:01:01.463 And we have Tech Dev with us. Hello, Tech Dev. 00:01:01.503 --> 00:01:02.143 Hey there, guys. 00:01:02.383 --> 00:01:06.543 Nice to have you both. And we are going to do day one right now, 00:01:06.603 --> 00:01:08.983 and then we'll be doing day two a little bit later in the show. 00:01:09.383 --> 00:01:14.323 Before we get to all of that, I want to say good morning to our friends over at Defined Networking. 00:01:14.443 --> 00:01:19.123 Go to defined.net slash unplugged and check out Managed Nebula. 00:01:19.363 --> 00:01:23.383 It's a decentralized VPN built on the open source Nebula platform that we love. 00:01:23.583 --> 00:01:26.803 And when I'm building a network, I really do try to think long term now. 00:01:26.923 --> 00:01:29.103 I want something fast. I want it secure and I want it resilient. 00:01:29.383 --> 00:01:31.703 And most importantly, I want it under my control. 00:01:32.463 --> 00:01:35.423 That's why I like Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. It's a decentralized 00:01:35.423 --> 00:01:39.743 VPN built on the open-source Nebula platform, which was originally engineered for Slack. 00:01:39.883 --> 00:01:40.023 What? 00:01:40.303 --> 00:01:44.123 Yeah, real scale. And get started. You can use it yourself. 100 hosts, 00:01:44.203 --> 00:01:47.523 totally free, no credit card required. Just go to define.net slash unplugged. 00:01:47.923 --> 00:01:51.143 Go deeper. Check it out. You can self-host the entire infrastructure yourself. 00:01:51.143 --> 00:01:53.703 You can build it totally private the way you actually need it. 00:01:53.923 --> 00:01:57.043 It's simple enough for your home lab. It's strong enough for a global team. 00:01:57.203 --> 00:02:00.043 And it's built for people who want to own the entire stack. Try it free, 00:02:00.143 --> 00:02:06.343 define.net slash unplugged. Go support them and check it out at Define.net slash Unplugged. 00:02:06.383 --> 00:02:11.183 We really do appreciate Define Networking for supporting the Unplugged program. Thank you very much. 00:02:13.161 --> 00:02:16.841 All right, this is our LinuxFest Northwest episode, but we invite all kinds 00:02:16.841 --> 00:02:20.261 to join us here, and there are the BSD types as well. 00:02:20.601 --> 00:02:24.401 And so we want to get everybody queued up on what the deal is, 00:02:24.501 --> 00:02:27.701 what the rules are for the BSD challenge, because it starts. 00:02:27.841 --> 00:02:31.581 It wouldn't be a challenge without some convoluted rules that we probably argue 00:02:31.581 --> 00:02:36.221 about now and later when we do the adjudicating, but we've got to start now to be, you know, try. 00:02:36.401 --> 00:02:38.301 We want you to be able to follow along. Yes, sir. 00:02:38.921 --> 00:02:42.961 Excuse me, is one of the rules don't launch a BSD challenge at a Linux event? 00:02:44.221 --> 00:02:49.221 So we're going to give you the rules. The challenge will actually start next episode, 665. 00:02:50.041 --> 00:02:54.261 And then it will conclude in episode 600 and 666. 00:02:58.941 --> 00:03:04.901 So you have a little bit of time. You get to follow along. So it's not a Linux versus BSD challenge. 00:03:05.081 --> 00:03:08.241 It's really can Linux users become functional on BSD challenge. 00:03:08.561 --> 00:03:13.321 Fresh BSD install is the idea. Four levels you can climb. You get to pick your 00:03:13.321 --> 00:03:18.241 own BSD, free BSD, open BSD, net BSD, ghost BSD, brand BSD, whatever it be. 00:03:18.241 --> 00:03:19.261 Hey, where's Dragonfly? 00:03:20.481 --> 00:03:22.161 Sure, Dragonfly BSD. Just didn't. 00:03:22.201 --> 00:03:23.621 Is there a BTSD version? 00:03:23.841 --> 00:03:26.241 It didn't rhyme, and I came up with a little rhyme, and I liked it, 00:03:26.261 --> 00:03:31.301 so I went with it. So we have, like I say, four levels, like Wes over there say. Four levels. 00:03:31.741 --> 00:03:34.481 Level one, you can get up to seven points. If you can get it booted, 00:03:34.581 --> 00:03:36.921 a fresh BSD installed somewhere, connect to the internet. 00:03:37.101 --> 00:03:38.081 That's going to be easy, though, right? 00:03:38.161 --> 00:03:41.401 Install a package, read a man page, you get points. We'll put all of this up 00:03:41.401 --> 00:03:46.101 at linuxunplugged.com slash BSD. So you can go there and get all the rules. 00:03:46.841 --> 00:03:51.041 So there's level two, which is you become a daily driver. Can you just do normal 00:03:51.041 --> 00:03:52.841 desktop stuff for human beings on this thing? 00:03:52.921 --> 00:03:55.921 Can you get a graphical desktop running a web browser? 00:03:56.221 --> 00:03:58.961 You know, don't run as root, which is awesome. 00:03:59.301 --> 00:04:02.101 And can you get audio working? Even just test sounds. 00:04:02.401 --> 00:04:03.481 Oh, yeah. Is that a thing? 00:04:04.557 --> 00:04:06.477 Oh, why are you making that face? 00:04:06.677 --> 00:04:07.337 It's a thing. 00:04:07.557 --> 00:04:12.697 I don't know if Brent knows how much is different. I mean, there's a lot that's the same or similar. 00:04:13.277 --> 00:04:13.737 Yeah. 00:04:13.957 --> 00:04:15.017 Or spelt differently, I hear. 00:04:15.337 --> 00:04:18.837 But there's whole sort of areas where the concept is the same, 00:04:18.877 --> 00:04:21.237 but the implementation has a totally different history. 00:04:21.237 --> 00:04:25.877 Have you ever seen pictures of a Russian knockoff of a Russian computer in the 80s or a Russian car? 00:04:25.977 --> 00:04:26.337 Yeah. 00:04:26.637 --> 00:04:27.357 Yeah, it's kind of like that. 00:04:29.197 --> 00:04:31.917 I mean, they might suggest that's what Linux is. 00:04:32.657 --> 00:04:37.417 Nope. Level three, if you can get to be a level three user, so you earn somewhere 00:04:37.417 --> 00:04:39.817 between 15 and 20 points. Again, all this will be on the website. 00:04:40.237 --> 00:04:44.137 You are now technically in the power user power band. 00:04:44.257 --> 00:04:44.777 Well, that was easy. 00:04:44.977 --> 00:04:49.057 Well, maybe. Can you stop and start certain services? Can you edit the config 00:04:49.057 --> 00:04:52.297 so it does something right at start, at boot the way you want it? 00:04:52.777 --> 00:04:55.797 Could you write a little shell script that runs on BSD? Can you edit a config? 00:04:56.017 --> 00:04:56.977 You know, those guys, can you do it? 00:04:57.077 --> 00:04:59.377 Have you effectively kicked your systemd habit? 00:04:59.657 --> 00:05:02.017 Yeah, again, all the things that you can do to earn points will be on the website. 00:05:02.097 --> 00:05:02.777 There's no systemd? 00:05:02.777 --> 00:05:06.617 And then level four, bonus round. If you can get over 21 points, 00:05:06.617 --> 00:05:09.997 you are truly, truly a BSD master. 00:05:10.537 --> 00:05:14.417 And this includes things like getting certain services inside a jail. 00:05:14.417 --> 00:05:16.397 So not just going with a pre-built jail. 00:05:18.486 --> 00:05:20.126 I don't even know what you're saying anymore. 00:05:21.446 --> 00:05:24.426 Yeah, I know. And some of the BSDs don't have jails, so you're going to have to figure that one out. 00:05:24.606 --> 00:05:25.226 They're more prisons? 00:05:25.486 --> 00:05:28.166 Also, there's other things like, you know, we could maybe, if it doesn't have 00:05:28.166 --> 00:05:30.366 jails, we could say if you could still get a service running that you can access 00:05:30.366 --> 00:05:32.646 from the network, then that would be allowable too, I think. 00:05:32.786 --> 00:05:35.626 Yeah, you know, maybe you're building it out in your home lab or providing mesh 00:05:35.626 --> 00:05:37.906 network services. There's a lot of stuff you can do. 00:05:38.106 --> 00:05:39.986 All right, so TechDev has a qualifying question. Go ahead. 00:05:40.366 --> 00:05:43.506 Yeah, do we get extra points for users who can get this going in California? 00:05:44.126 --> 00:05:45.766 Yeah, I feel like that's true, yeah. 00:05:45.906 --> 00:05:46.446 That's a good answer. 00:05:46.446 --> 00:05:50.426 There should be maybe a handicap for California. I could, yeah. 00:05:50.906 --> 00:05:54.466 Or list the number of sort of compliance or regulatory hurdles you overcame 00:05:54.466 --> 00:05:55.986 to get this working, and we'll give you points. 00:05:56.086 --> 00:05:58.586 Boost in to plead your case, and the board will consider it. 00:05:59.406 --> 00:06:02.066 So, you know, if you want, we'll give it special consideration. 00:06:02.526 --> 00:06:03.326 Lawbreaking points? 00:06:05.026 --> 00:06:08.486 All right. Rebel points. Also, I think points will be issued... 00:06:09.466 --> 00:06:09.866 Randomly. 00:06:09.946 --> 00:06:14.006 ...for the craziest place you've installed BSD. I mean, it has to get us going. 00:06:15.126 --> 00:06:20.106 So you know So the craziest place you've got BST Let us know And here's how we want you to submit, 00:06:21.149 --> 00:06:25.589 You can send a boost or you can go to linuxunplugged.com slash contact and tell 00:06:25.589 --> 00:06:31.269 us in there which BSD you used, your score that you got, if you have a weird 00:06:31.269 --> 00:06:33.529 install place, how you installed it, that kind of thing. 00:06:33.669 --> 00:06:35.869 And if anything surprised you about it, let us know that too. 00:06:36.389 --> 00:06:40.289 When you say location, are we talking about what device or what physical location 00:06:40.289 --> 00:06:41.769 that you were able to install it on? 00:06:41.889 --> 00:06:42.509 Sure, both. 00:06:42.609 --> 00:06:44.089 You can plead your case. I have a question. 00:06:44.209 --> 00:06:44.369 Yeah. 00:06:44.589 --> 00:06:45.289 It's me now. 00:06:45.509 --> 00:06:46.689 Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Brad. Go ahead. 00:06:47.209 --> 00:06:51.129 Can we get extra points with how many days we ran BSD? 00:06:51.329 --> 00:06:54.949 I feel like if you can run it for the whole week, that's definitely some points, 00:06:55.109 --> 00:06:57.509 right? Or every day you drive it, maybe? What do you think of that? 00:06:57.769 --> 00:06:58.309 Yeah, that's fair. 00:06:58.549 --> 00:07:01.169 Every day you drive it, what would be fair? A point for every day? 00:07:01.649 --> 00:07:03.969 Yeah, okay. We got a max of seven days. 00:07:03.969 --> 00:07:05.689 Because I'm not going to daily drive it. 00:07:05.849 --> 00:07:07.329 Oh, you say that now. You might love it. 00:07:07.469 --> 00:07:07.769 No. 00:07:07.949 --> 00:07:10.529 What if, I mean, when you start seeing Brent stacking points, 00:07:10.649 --> 00:07:12.029 maybe you'll change your mind. That is true. 00:07:12.169 --> 00:07:13.029 I hate it. I started early. 00:07:13.189 --> 00:07:14.109 I hate it when he's... What? 00:07:14.449 --> 00:07:14.709 No. 00:07:14.709 --> 00:07:19.329 The reason that there wasn't a van is because he was getting BSD installed. 00:07:20.189 --> 00:07:23.189 You can't do brake swaps when you're doing BSD swaps. 00:07:23.589 --> 00:07:26.989 Well, that's the whole reason. The gas line broke because it was running on BSD. 00:07:27.249 --> 00:07:29.509 Ah, yeah. You've got to pick the right field. 00:07:30.089 --> 00:07:33.329 All right. So let us know how it goes. Give us your score. If you can get over 00:07:33.329 --> 00:07:35.469 21 points, you're truly a beastie whisperer. 00:07:35.849 --> 00:07:38.069 I'm going to be honest with you. I think I'm going for the survival level, 00:07:38.169 --> 00:07:40.749 which is somewhere in the 8 to 14 points. So here's how it stacks out. 00:07:41.289 --> 00:07:45.549 If you get 0 to 7 points, then you have visited BSD as far as the show is concerned. 00:07:45.829 --> 00:07:47.149 You've done it. You've visited BSD. 00:07:47.549 --> 00:07:51.769 If you get 8 to 14 points, you have survived BSD. I think that's probably where I'm headed. 00:07:52.409 --> 00:07:55.569 If you can get 15 to 20 points, you can hang with BSD. 00:07:55.769 --> 00:07:55.909 Wow. 00:07:56.009 --> 00:07:59.709 And if you get beyond 21 points, 21 or beyond, you become a Beastie Whisperer 00:07:59.709 --> 00:08:00.609 as far as the show is concerned. 00:08:01.069 --> 00:08:03.029 I got a personal stretch goal for you. 00:08:03.149 --> 00:08:03.269 Yeah. 00:08:03.970 --> 00:08:09.610 You know, just think about the hero's journey here if you were able to convert fake NAS. 00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:11.610 Oh, my God. 00:08:11.770 --> 00:08:15.850 Back to BSD and then import the pool back to BSD ZFS. 00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:16.350 Wow. 00:08:16.430 --> 00:08:18.710 There's no way I couldn't do that without you guys, though. Well, 00:08:18.950 --> 00:08:20.750 both from an emotional support level. 00:08:20.930 --> 00:08:22.210 Call in friend support. 00:08:22.330 --> 00:08:23.050 Oh, come on. 00:08:23.150 --> 00:08:25.670 You could do a 50-50, call a friend, you know. 00:08:25.910 --> 00:08:27.970 You're going to make me put everything into open code? No. 00:08:30.050 --> 00:08:31.610 Oh, is that a rule? 00:08:32.350 --> 00:08:35.210 I mean, I don't think it runs on BSD, but you can figure it out. 00:08:35.790 --> 00:08:41.010 So there is a conceivable possibility where somebody could get up to like 30 points. 00:08:41.310 --> 00:08:45.050 And if anybody wants to link us an audio file or something like that of their 00:08:45.050 --> 00:08:47.650 journey, if it's short and tight, we might play it on the show as well. That could be. 00:08:47.650 --> 00:08:48.870 A lot of fun. Did you say call the launch? 00:08:49.230 --> 00:08:51.730 You could call the launch, but it's probably better to send it to this show. 00:08:51.730 --> 00:08:53.410 Yeah, that's true. That's true. Okay, sorry. 00:08:53.690 --> 00:08:54.210 We should need a number. 00:08:54.210 --> 00:08:55.670 Send it to Brent's voicemail. 00:08:56.850 --> 00:08:58.070 We need a number for this show. 00:08:58.150 --> 00:08:58.470 Yeah, we do. 00:08:58.470 --> 00:09:01.270 Kind of thing, so people can call and give us live reports right in the heat 00:09:01.270 --> 00:09:04.330 of the moment. This damn thing. That'd be so amazing. 00:09:04.790 --> 00:09:05.510 Please send those. 00:09:05.550 --> 00:09:08.010 Maybe the next challenge we could get that set up. That could be good. 00:09:08.450 --> 00:09:10.970 Email that to alanjude at jupiterbroadcasting.com. 00:09:10.970 --> 00:09:11.310 Yeah. 00:09:13.250 --> 00:09:17.570 Alright, so it might be day one of LinuxFest Northwest for us, 00:09:17.590 --> 00:09:22.630 but the reality is LinuxFest Northwest is a week-long, if not two-week-long process. 00:09:23.450 --> 00:09:26.070 PJ, you got here Wednesday evening. 00:09:26.070 --> 00:09:26.650 Yeah. 00:09:27.170 --> 00:09:32.590 And then made it over to the farm pretty quick and got right to work. 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:40.130 Oh. 00:09:50.170 --> 00:09:54.050 Something always happens we were down a couple of cars and we got an extra crew 00:09:54.050 --> 00:09:58.750 here we need to get another car working we didn't get that car working and. 00:09:58.750 --> 00:10:01.490 You know that Jeff gets kind of handsy if. 00:10:01.490 --> 00:10:06.550 He's not helping you with something he gets handsy? he does he's got to jack 00:10:06.550 --> 00:10:08.550 something up or he gets handsy. 00:10:08.550 --> 00:10:09.410 He has for consent. 00:10:11.530 --> 00:10:14.030 But you had how many cars to work on? 00:10:14.170 --> 00:10:18.070 Well we had three cars to work on we got two out of three two out of three working 00:10:18.070 --> 00:10:19.970 No, yours was already up and running, thankfully. 00:10:20.230 --> 00:10:20.470 Oh, surprising. 00:10:20.670 --> 00:10:20.910 Somehow. 00:10:21.290 --> 00:10:24.550 Yeah, yeah. But you got here, which is great. You got in yesterday evening. 00:10:24.870 --> 00:10:25.150 Yes. 00:10:26.430 --> 00:10:27.150 Time's going fast. 00:10:27.150 --> 00:10:29.750 It takes a long time when you're on the other side of the continent, it turns out. 00:10:29.910 --> 00:10:30.650 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 00:10:30.850 --> 00:10:32.210 But I got here, and I feel good. 00:10:32.490 --> 00:10:35.830 Yeah, yeah, it does feel good. And, you know, I've been thinking about, 00:10:35.970 --> 00:10:39.210 like, what do we do for LinuxFest this year? 00:10:39.270 --> 00:10:43.890 Because I've been going for 26 years now, and how do you make that different? 00:10:43.890 --> 00:10:45.650 We've been covering it in the show for almost a decade. 00:10:46.270 --> 00:10:49.950 How do you actually make that different? And I was thinking about this, 00:10:50.050 --> 00:10:55.650 and I realized that it's kind of the theme of LinuxFest, which is back to root. 00:10:55.810 --> 00:11:00.490 Because it hits different this year for a few reasons, and I want to get into that. 00:11:00.670 --> 00:11:04.670 Some of them are close to home. Some of them, I think, are really about where Linux is at now. 00:11:05.430 --> 00:11:09.350 But first, it's lunchtime for us. So we have to go grill up some hot dogs. 00:11:09.490 --> 00:11:13.610 And then when we come back after the break, it'll be day two of LinuxFest Northwest. 00:11:16.669 --> 00:11:21.089 But before we get there, I want to say thank you to our members for making this possible. 00:11:21.869 --> 00:11:23.709 Sincerely, members, we're like 00:11:23.709 --> 00:11:26.969 running on fumes these days, and it's the fumes that you are providing. 00:11:27.189 --> 00:11:31.389 So we really do appreciate it. And of course, Define Networking is also like 00:11:31.389 --> 00:11:32.909 coming in clutch, as the kids would say. 00:11:33.209 --> 00:11:35.769 They're really clutching it up. Between the two, it's like we're making it, 00:11:35.869 --> 00:11:37.829 and we're able to do things like LinuxFest Northwest. 00:11:38.109 --> 00:11:40.769 If you'd like to become a member, linuxunplugged.com slash membership. 00:11:41.009 --> 00:11:43.969 If you want to support the whole network, that'd be jupyter.party, 00:11:44.109 --> 00:11:45.709 and we really do appreciate it. 00:11:45.709 --> 00:11:49.149 sincerely you can also boost the show and support each episode individually the 00:11:49.149 --> 00:11:52.189 splits go to all of the host editor drew the podcast developer and a little 00:11:52.189 --> 00:11:55.329 bit goes to the index as well and the nice thing about that it's immediate it's 00:11:55.329 --> 00:11:58.289 all done there's no banks anything like that it's just all over a peer-to-peer 00:11:58.289 --> 00:12:02.509 open source network using an entire open source linux to linux stack on our 00:12:02.509 --> 00:12:05.369 end thank you everybody who supports the show through a membership or through 00:12:05.369 --> 00:12:07.089 a boost we really do appreciate you, 00:12:10.787 --> 00:12:16.187 And here we are at LinuxFest Northwest Day 2. Hello, everybody in HC108. Nice to have you here. 00:12:16.647 --> 00:12:17.007 Yes. 00:12:19.187 --> 00:12:23.107 Actually, round of applause. How many of you got a hot dog yesterday? Anybody get a hot dog? 00:12:23.387 --> 00:12:23.507 Yeah. 00:12:23.787 --> 00:12:27.507 All right. Some hot dogs. Some hot dogs. Pizza and Indian food was also available. 00:12:27.947 --> 00:12:29.327 The hot dogs were free. It went really well. 00:12:29.947 --> 00:12:33.487 Emma and my wife, Adia, were absolute machines at the barbecue. 00:12:33.687 --> 00:12:36.707 I took a photo of the lineup. It lasted, like, for two hours, 00:12:36.767 --> 00:12:39.867 and it was huge. Lots of lineups. Very efficient and courteous. 00:12:39.867 --> 00:12:41.607 Yeah, it was grill crazy. 00:12:41.787 --> 00:12:43.387 So shout out to System76 for that. 00:12:43.667 --> 00:12:47.627 So we wanted to talk about a couple of things just to kind of warm us up while 00:12:47.627 --> 00:12:49.087 we're all getting going here. 00:12:49.187 --> 00:12:53.527 And the first one is actually a local LLM story and the Linux kernel. 00:12:53.867 --> 00:12:56.787 And how Greg KH, the number two in command of the Linux kernel, 00:12:56.987 --> 00:13:04.467 has been running his own bot that he calls, I love this name, GKH Clanker T1000. 00:13:05.167 --> 00:13:05.987 That's appropriate. 00:13:06.187 --> 00:13:06.967 That's the name of his bot. 00:13:07.067 --> 00:13:09.107 The label is up front, and you've got to appreciate that. 00:13:09.107 --> 00:13:16.007 And he's running it locally on his LAN on an AMD Ryzen system that's in a framework desktop. 00:13:16.387 --> 00:13:19.227 And he's put a picture of it up on Mastodon. 00:13:19.367 --> 00:13:22.607 Like the rest of us, he's got a monitor propped up on some various sort of tech 00:13:22.607 --> 00:13:24.247 books he probably hasn't read for a decade. 00:13:24.427 --> 00:13:24.967 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:13:25.107 --> 00:13:26.007 So you know he's a real hacker. 00:13:26.187 --> 00:13:26.907 Yeah, that's very true. 00:13:27.047 --> 00:13:27.347 He doesn't care. 00:13:27.787 --> 00:13:32.487 So I thought I'd kick this off. And if anybody has any input or thoughts, 00:13:32.627 --> 00:13:36.687 raise your hand. But we've been watching, I feel like, the Linux community and 00:13:36.687 --> 00:13:42.627 the open source community really grapple with a lot of the moral and licensing issues around LLMs. 00:13:42.787 --> 00:13:46.807 At the same time, what we're also witnessing is... 00:13:47.845 --> 00:13:51.905 Folks like kernel developers and project leads and people that are shipping 00:13:51.905 --> 00:13:55.945 software are rapidly also using these tools. 00:13:56.665 --> 00:14:01.305 And the adoption seems to be kind of like there's this bifurcation of some folks 00:14:01.305 --> 00:14:05.145 that are working on the lower level projects, like maybe desktop software and 00:14:05.145 --> 00:14:08.385 things like that, and they're taking very strong anti-AI stances. 00:14:08.645 --> 00:14:12.685 And then you have people on the kernels and on the larger projects and services 00:14:12.685 --> 00:14:16.725 that we all use, and they're integrating, they're already integrating and using AI. 00:14:17.512 --> 00:14:19.772 And it seems like we have, and I'm sure you probably maybe have some thoughts 00:14:19.772 --> 00:14:24.052 on this. It seems like we have this split here, this kind of bifurcation inside our own community. 00:14:24.332 --> 00:14:27.012 You know, I think at least some of that, I mean, there's a lot of aspects to 00:14:27.012 --> 00:14:31.252 unpack, but I think some of it is, thankfully, we've seen that Greg and some 00:14:31.252 --> 00:14:35.872 of the kernel team these days are, I guess, a little more well-resourced than 00:14:35.872 --> 00:14:38.152 your average open source FOSS developer, right? 00:14:38.252 --> 00:14:41.552 And so I think some of this is, whether you want to engage or not, 00:14:41.672 --> 00:14:45.472 there is the rise of other folks using it, whether that's for good or just a 00:14:45.472 --> 00:14:47.552 lot of bug reports you don't know what to do with or whatever. 00:14:47.812 --> 00:14:50.852 So I think what we are seeing is that for the people in the privileged position 00:14:50.852 --> 00:14:53.292 on some of the kernel team who are interested and willing in doing a lot of 00:14:53.292 --> 00:14:56.932 their own work, they are in a good position to be able to adopt and play with 00:14:56.932 --> 00:15:00.532 and use some of this tooling maybe in the ways they want, like running locally, 00:15:00.692 --> 00:15:02.492 like having sponsored hardware and that kind of stuff. 00:15:02.892 --> 00:15:06.912 So I think maybe it could be a leading edge exploring when you do have time, 00:15:06.972 --> 00:15:10.272 when you do have support, how can you adopt some of these tools to help your workflow? 00:15:10.472 --> 00:15:13.032 Okay, so here's my question to you guys. If anybody wants to answer it, 00:15:13.112 --> 00:15:15.052 raise your hand. Otherwise, I'm going to make Brent answer it. 00:15:15.052 --> 00:15:16.692 Oh, please help me. 00:15:17.292 --> 00:15:21.952 Is this the first step to our community kind of coming to a consensus on AI? 00:15:22.532 --> 00:15:26.372 Will we kind of come to a general consensus of, yes, it's good when you use 00:15:26.372 --> 00:15:29.152 it in these conditions for these things? Is this how we get there? 00:15:29.612 --> 00:15:31.572 Anyone have thoughts on that? Do you have thoughts on that? 00:15:31.692 --> 00:15:35.612 I think I have some thoughts. I'll warm up till someone wants to approach the mic. 00:15:36.492 --> 00:15:39.132 Yeah, I think it's reasonable that a lot of us are hesitating. 00:15:39.132 --> 00:15:43.512 but to have someone like the Colonel team start to do this and in ways that 00:15:43.512 --> 00:15:45.212 are local, I think feels really nice. 00:15:45.712 --> 00:15:50.092 And it shows that some of the teams that we look up to, 00:15:50.779 --> 00:15:53.979 I mean, literally it's on every laptop in this room, are doing, 00:15:53.999 --> 00:15:58.419 at least using the tools in a responsible way that we can also sign up for. 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:01.279 Maybe that's it. He's kind of demonstrating a responsible way to use the tool. 00:16:01.439 --> 00:16:07.779 And like using, you know, some computer manufacturers that do follow some of 00:16:07.779 --> 00:16:10.979 the ideals that we care about and that, hey, it's possible today. 00:16:11.419 --> 00:16:15.419 And even if you don't have as big of hardware as that, give it a couple of years. 00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:20.599 And the work that Linux has done to make AI available to run on these machines 00:16:20.599 --> 00:16:24.859 is going to allow us all to have AI in a way that kind of fits for us, 00:16:25.019 --> 00:16:30.079 despite all the challenges that we currently have with how it's made and being used. 00:16:30.259 --> 00:16:32.959 PJ is here. What do you think? Does Greg doing these kinds of things, 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:33.979 does it set a good example? 00:16:34.199 --> 00:16:38.859 And my second question would be, is he maybe limiting himself only using the free local stuff? 00:16:38.859 --> 00:16:44.679 Oh, that's a good second question. The first one for me is, I think it's just an example of trust. 00:16:44.819 --> 00:16:48.199 And that's something I took away from Mad Dog's talk about, Mad Dog's talk about 00:16:48.199 --> 00:16:52.679 sovereignty is you have to trust something at some point, you have to trust someone at some point. 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.999 And even if I don't trust all AI 00:16:55.999 --> 00:17:01.239 all the time, if somebody like Greg KH is using a tool, I trust Greg KH. 00:17:02.259 --> 00:17:05.079 Knowing what tool he's using would be helpful. And the fact that he is going 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:07.179 local, well, that's been my personal stance as well. 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.639 I have used the online stuff. I think it's very powerful, but I specifically 00:17:11.639 --> 00:17:14.239 want to focus on running the software locally. 00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:17.979 And I'm kind of glad that I'm seeing these guys. 00:17:18.099 --> 00:17:20.779 These turn on developers do the same thing. So what about any of this would 00:17:20.779 --> 00:17:23.499 apply to you too, if you're only using local stuff today, I mean, 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:26.839 this is going to change in a couple of years, but today, maybe it's not finding 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:30.959 as many vulnerabilities as you know, an opus or a mythos or whatever it is that 00:17:30.959 --> 00:17:32.419 you'd pay thousands of dollars for. 00:17:33.438 --> 00:17:35.378 Yeah, I mean, I think that's just gonna get better and better. 00:17:35.598 --> 00:17:39.578 What we've noticed every month, the local stuff is better and better. 00:17:39.778 --> 00:17:42.998 You know, they're, they're finding better ways to compress everything and fit 00:17:42.998 --> 00:17:47.598 more into memory. And it's just insane. I've got a very old graphics card, and it's running great. 00:17:47.858 --> 00:17:50.118 I'm just trying to do more and more with it. And I think we're just going to 00:17:50.118 --> 00:17:51.518 keep seeing that get better and better. 00:17:51.718 --> 00:17:55.858 Eventually, eventually, we're going to be on the same stage as, 00:17:56.663 --> 00:17:57.983 the mainframes running these things. 00:17:58.223 --> 00:18:00.543 It only makes me think, right, in open source, we're kind of used to this. 00:18:00.663 --> 00:18:02.623 So, home labs and self-hosting, right? 00:18:02.743 --> 00:18:06.143 Like, can we compete with the storage for Google Photos back in? 00:18:06.203 --> 00:18:08.363 No, but kind of we can now because we have image, right? 00:18:08.443 --> 00:18:11.643 So, it might take longer because there's a bigger hardware difference than we were facing before. 00:18:11.783 --> 00:18:14.043 That's my thinking, is the commercial guys don't stand still, 00:18:14.163 --> 00:18:15.523 right? So, the Googles and the Apples. 00:18:15.743 --> 00:18:18.443 But they also, as part of that, tend to incentivize. 00:18:18.603 --> 00:18:19.143 Yeah, that's true. 00:18:19.243 --> 00:18:21.623 And I feel like we're getting kind of a Moore's Law set up here with AIs too, 00:18:21.683 --> 00:18:25.443 right? Like, with the AI software and the AI models, we are accelerating so 00:18:25.443 --> 00:18:27.443 fast the way we did with CPUs back in the day. 00:18:27.443 --> 00:18:27.883 So true. 00:18:28.063 --> 00:18:31.403 Yeah, I don't think it's going to be long before we're running extremely capable 00:18:31.403 --> 00:18:34.023 models. And maybe the models will just get smaller and we'll just choose different 00:18:34.023 --> 00:18:35.603 models for different tasks. Can't wait. 00:18:36.183 --> 00:18:40.163 I like it. I like it. Thank you, PJ. That's an interesting point. 00:18:40.163 --> 00:18:41.763 And I hope you're right. And I think they are getting faster. 00:18:42.063 --> 00:18:43.563 Tell us your name and tell us what you think. 00:18:43.703 --> 00:18:50.323 Yeah, my name is Sam. So I, up until very recently, taught at-risk youth IT 00:18:50.323 --> 00:18:54.703 skills and things like that to help them get into the IT field locally where I live. 00:18:54.703 --> 00:18:57.683 and um we had a very big conversation as 00:18:57.683 --> 00:19:00.443 a non-profit about how to approach ai i bet and how to 00:19:00.443 --> 00:19:03.763 like actually teach it effectively and um 00:19:03.763 --> 00:19:07.063 i don't know if this is 2pg 13 for the podcast but um the 00:19:07.063 --> 00:19:11.723 the analogy that one of our staff members used was kind of like the sex ed talk 00:19:11.723 --> 00:19:15.503 of like you're not going to stop people from using it you might as well teach 00:19:15.503 --> 00:19:20.243 them how to use it responsibly yeah yeah right so um i was very big on local 00:19:20.243 --> 00:19:24.763 models about um using them as a tool to like help yourself get an advantage, 00:19:24.963 --> 00:19:29.523 but not like putting your personal information out there for it to be put up later. 00:19:29.743 --> 00:19:33.503 Like I'm thinking of the GitHub co-pilot thing that happened and it's only a 00:19:33.503 --> 00:19:35.443 matter, I mean, you know, Gemini had a leak like that. 00:19:35.603 --> 00:19:38.863 Like there's, there's plenty of examples of that happening. 00:19:39.103 --> 00:19:43.943 Sorry, I'm not too close, but yeah. So I think I liked your take on that too, Chris. 00:19:44.123 --> 00:19:51.223 So the like how, like Greg cage kind of like demonstrating, how can you use this responsibly? 00:19:52.203 --> 00:19:55.383 And I also think too, yeah, it might be, 00:19:56.165 --> 00:20:00.745 because they have the resources to actually use these tools and the scale and 00:20:00.745 --> 00:20:03.685 also, you know, thinking about the Linux kernel being like millions of lines of code. 00:20:04.245 --> 00:20:05.065 It's got to be a job. 00:20:05.345 --> 00:20:07.785 It's a lot different than smaller projects. Not to, you know, 00:20:07.905 --> 00:20:09.165 it's just scale. It's huge. 00:20:09.445 --> 00:20:11.685 Yeah, and that sometimes necessitates tools like this. 00:20:11.785 --> 00:20:12.605 Yeah, for sure. 00:20:12.745 --> 00:20:16.805 Well, I think we've seen kind of Greg has his unconventional attitude perhaps, right? 00:20:16.865 --> 00:20:19.725 Like we've seen some of his great blog posts about like how the kernel treats 00:20:19.725 --> 00:20:23.365 security, which is very much not the way that a lot of other projects sort of have a security model. 00:20:23.365 --> 00:20:26.625 so it makes sense to me that if you have that sort of outcome focused 00:20:26.625 --> 00:20:31.365 view that they're not just like whole hogging AI slop into the kernel at least 00:20:31.365 --> 00:20:34.325 I don't think anyone here thinks that right and so they're showing this version 00:20:34.325 --> 00:20:38.185 of like well we can keep our standards the code is the code and if the process 00:20:38.185 --> 00:20:41.405 is there and the people are signing off and they're responsible for it and Linus 00:20:41.405 --> 00:20:44.125 isn't mad at this commit and yelling at you then okay it's probably going to work. 00:20:44.425 --> 00:20:47.365 Yeah the fact that something's being audited by Linus Torvalds is enough for 00:20:47.365 --> 00:20:49.065 me to be like you know that's probably going to be okay. 00:20:49.265 --> 00:20:49.865 Yeah there's layers there. 00:20:50.405 --> 00:20:52.425 He's not a guy to be shy of when things are bad. 00:20:52.625 --> 00:20:56.105 I wonder if we'll be discussing this next LinuxFest, right? Because it seems 00:20:56.105 --> 00:20:59.085 like this is a seasonal thing that we're working through, and this phase we're 00:20:59.085 --> 00:21:01.085 at right now is we're sort of digesting this stage of it. 00:21:01.325 --> 00:21:05.325 And with the development of local and folks like Greg, maybe by a year from 00:21:05.325 --> 00:21:09.185 now, we'll have sort of settled on kind of a common community agreement on this. 00:21:09.585 --> 00:21:12.625 Thank you. That's good. Did you want to join us? Yeah, come on up. 00:21:13.765 --> 00:21:14.905 Tell us your name and what you think. 00:21:14.965 --> 00:21:16.265 Hi, everyone. My name is Aaron Wolf. 00:21:16.465 --> 00:21:16.805 Hello, Aaron. 00:21:16.985 --> 00:21:21.445 I just wanted to share a sort of meta perspective that I think is something 00:21:21.445 --> 00:21:25.725 I tend to try to keep in mind in all of this space, and that's the topic of induced demand. 00:21:26.325 --> 00:21:30.365 So people know this from things like traffic engineering. You have the issue 00:21:30.365 --> 00:21:33.705 of if you just widen the road because there's congestion, then people say, 00:21:33.805 --> 00:21:35.945 oh, well, now I can drive more, and then there's just more congestion again. 00:21:36.105 --> 00:21:39.405 And, of course, it's something in the general pattern of, 00:21:40.014 --> 00:21:42.154 when you make things available, people will use it. So the question is, 00:21:42.274 --> 00:21:43.054 what are you making available? 00:21:43.394 --> 00:21:46.454 And I think of this as the significance of the local movement, 00:21:46.454 --> 00:21:50.194 because obviously if your goal is to, you have a limited hardware and you're 00:21:50.194 --> 00:21:54.274 going to make use of it, then you're going to work through how to make that work well. 00:21:54.614 --> 00:21:58.294 And the pattern we see with the big corporate AIs is mostly, 00:21:58.754 --> 00:22:00.354 we just throw more hardware at it. 00:22:00.414 --> 00:22:04.734 But the issue is basically software eats Moore's law, right? 00:22:04.734 --> 00:22:07.534 So the point is, if you get more 00:22:07.534 --> 00:22:10.454 powerful hardware, then people are less careful to use it effectively. 00:22:10.734 --> 00:22:12.154 This guy's used an electron app before. 00:22:12.314 --> 00:22:15.754 I don't have to care about compressing this or making it efficient or something 00:22:15.754 --> 00:22:18.514 because I just got so much hardware. And the end result is you can be worse 00:22:18.514 --> 00:22:19.914 off than you were to start with. 00:22:20.374 --> 00:22:24.174 And so there's also this pattern of people just using it just to use it, 00:22:24.274 --> 00:22:26.314 which is what we're seeing with corporate AIs. 00:22:26.514 --> 00:22:29.954 So, you know, my other example would be we have LED lighting or something. 00:22:29.954 --> 00:22:32.614 and then instead of being like oh hey we have a world in 00:22:32.614 --> 00:22:35.354 which we use less electricity to do the same thing 00:22:35.354 --> 00:22:38.034 which is just we need a certain amount of lighting no then you have like buildings in 00:22:38.034 --> 00:22:41.074 china that are covered in leds just lights on everything 00:22:41.074 --> 00:22:44.974 because now you can do that yeah and so there's guilty 00:22:44.974 --> 00:22:48.394 there's it's extremely important that we have alternatives 00:22:48.394 --> 00:22:51.914 to that pattern because that pattern is a catastrophic in 00:22:51.914 --> 00:22:54.614 the long run where we actually figure out how to work 00:22:54.614 --> 00:22:57.474 with reasonable systems so that that's an 00:22:57.474 --> 00:23:01.794 alternative and the more people using that the more but but i think framing 00:23:01.794 --> 00:23:04.894 it that way is extremely important because the point isn't just oh i can do 00:23:04.894 --> 00:23:08.654 this for privacy or whatever else the point is we actually need a sustainable 00:23:08.654 --> 00:23:13.194 system that doesn't have this runaway forever until you have 25 lanes of highway 00:23:13.194 --> 00:23:15.534 yeah you know version of ai which is, 00:23:16.616 --> 00:23:19.956 at least people are realizing that the energy resource and water and all it's 00:23:19.956 --> 00:23:22.256 like crazy. And this is going to ruin everything. 00:23:22.776 --> 00:23:24.456 Have you used any locally yet? 00:23:24.656 --> 00:23:28.256 I haven't, I've sort of known people who did it or I've heard things about it 00:23:28.256 --> 00:23:31.356 and I'm, yeah, I haven't actually jumped into it already, but I'm, 00:23:31.476 --> 00:23:34.376 it's the place I'm most open to playing around a little more. 00:23:34.496 --> 00:23:37.916 I'm curious if you think that it's a solution to the problem that you mentioned. 00:23:38.476 --> 00:23:43.176 Well, I think that if people aren't even trying it, then, you know, 00:23:43.296 --> 00:23:45.456 I mean, that's where we need things. It's sort of like, if you're going to build, 00:23:45.616 --> 00:23:49.396 go with my metaphor, if you want to build walkable, bikeable, 00:23:49.576 --> 00:23:52.776 efficient, you know, places, you have to have people advocating for that. 00:23:52.936 --> 00:23:55.436 You have to design it so that that's a possibility. 00:23:55.896 --> 00:24:00.256 And there's a, I'll go with that metaphor again, but I think it really just applies for AI. 00:24:00.596 --> 00:24:04.596 The, the transit metaphor is if the buses get stuck in traffic, 00:24:04.596 --> 00:24:09.416 then the congestion goes to infinity because in general, the congestion will 00:24:09.416 --> 00:24:13.476 stop at the point that it's better to do the alternative. 00:24:13.476 --> 00:24:15.976 So if you have light rail that doesn't get stuck in traffic, 00:24:16.216 --> 00:24:18.636 then as soon as the congestion is worse than the light rail, 00:24:18.736 --> 00:24:21.656 people just switch to using light rail, which means the congestion will always 00:24:21.656 --> 00:24:26.456 get just bad enough that it's the same time as it takes to take the train. 00:24:26.876 --> 00:24:31.116 But if the buses get stuck in traffic, then it goes to infinity because nobody 00:24:31.116 --> 00:24:32.336 switches to the buses ever. 00:24:32.756 --> 00:24:35.876 And so we have to have a situation with AI where... 00:24:36.783 --> 00:24:41.403 You have to have a thing where you go, oh, the costs or the something or the 00:24:41.403 --> 00:24:47.503 hassle or the awfulness of this runaway craziness, there's a reason for not 00:24:47.503 --> 00:24:50.983 just me being because I have ideals, but for other people to go, 00:24:51.603 --> 00:24:53.663 yeah, but it's just more convenient to run it locally. 00:24:53.843 --> 00:24:57.023 I think even beyond locally, though, right? I think open weights come in here 00:24:57.023 --> 00:25:00.083 because part of what you're describing is, I think, partly an effect of the 00:25:00.083 --> 00:25:03.043 fact that we're racing at the frontier because it's a new untapped technology 00:25:03.043 --> 00:25:06.123 that we don't know what the bounds are at this point, I think is fair. 00:25:06.763 --> 00:25:10.083 So you have folks that are using more and more resources to try to find the 00:25:10.083 --> 00:25:12.063 edge of what you can even do with this technology. 00:25:12.343 --> 00:25:15.363 But on the other side, you do have some more commodification of some of these 00:25:15.363 --> 00:25:19.283 providers who are willing to compete on, okay, well, we're all serving Minimax 2.5. 00:25:19.543 --> 00:25:21.863 How do I make my business more profitable and how do I survive? 00:25:22.203 --> 00:25:25.523 A lot of that might need to be, how do I do inference for the cheapest possible way? 00:25:25.583 --> 00:25:28.223 So even if it's not at home, some of the open source ethos, I think, 00:25:28.283 --> 00:25:30.903 can infect this drive to more sustainability. 00:25:31.383 --> 00:25:34.203 Yeah, so I guess I'm just summarizing that it's the... 00:25:35.029 --> 00:25:38.789 the ideals and the people who care about the principles and the systems and 00:25:38.789 --> 00:25:41.029 the privacy or open source stuff, 00:25:41.029 --> 00:25:45.809 that can be a driver, but it has to reach that point where there's some reason 00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:50.329 why other people actually find it annoying or it's shittified enough that they're like, 00:25:50.609 --> 00:25:54.409 oh, well, I'll go to this other thing because that's better and has to exist 00:25:54.409 --> 00:25:56.289 for that pattern to happen. 00:25:56.449 --> 00:25:59.149 So it's extremely important we do that because I don't see any other off ramp 00:25:59.149 --> 00:26:00.809 to this pattern we're on. 00:26:00.949 --> 00:26:03.309 Well, that has happened with Linux. I mean, we're seeing it. 00:26:03.449 --> 00:26:03.869 Exactly. Yeah. 00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:10.369 Windows 11, but the people who are helping make Linux easier than everything 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:15.469 else and more powerful than everything else are also the people that we're talking 00:26:15.469 --> 00:26:20.909 about who are using some of the local AI to push the frontier of what is acceptable. 00:26:21.229 --> 00:26:24.889 I think that framing, that's an example of thinking about the incentives of 00:26:24.889 --> 00:26:27.829 the system so that when we're thinking about it, we're not just looking at the 00:26:27.829 --> 00:26:31.409 day-to-day whatever about the tools. We're sort of thinking about what are the 00:26:31.409 --> 00:26:33.509 structures that are getting people to go one way or another. 00:26:33.869 --> 00:26:35.489 So I'm just offering that metaphor. 00:26:35.609 --> 00:26:35.769 Great. 00:26:35.909 --> 00:26:38.509 Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So the other thing that kind of, 00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:41.729 oh yeah, no tech dev, you got, yeah, jump in. Come on up. Come on down. 00:26:43.109 --> 00:26:45.249 Hey guys. So how are you? 00:26:45.649 --> 00:26:45.709 He's taller. 00:26:45.909 --> 00:26:47.629 And what are you thinking about? What are you thinking about? 00:26:47.809 --> 00:26:51.829 So talking about AI, you had posed the question about, is this the point that 00:26:51.829 --> 00:26:54.369 we accept it? And I'd like to reframe the question to... 00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:58.400 To focus on a different aspect of what the AI is. 00:26:58.580 --> 00:27:03.700 I think that in population movements, so let's say you're coming to another 00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:06.860 country, you would end up going to the place that is familiar to you, right? 00:27:07.040 --> 00:27:11.580 Not necessarily the best that a local might think, because the best is relative. 00:27:12.140 --> 00:27:15.060 And in the Linux community, we're seeing an issue of attrition, 00:27:15.260 --> 00:27:21.880 where people with ideals that come from the 90s, which is a different context, 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.300 are then going to be working against a context 00:27:25.300 --> 00:27:28.480 that we exist in now in the 90s if we're looking 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.260 for software that is primarily meant to own 00:27:32.260 --> 00:27:37.500 a system to control something to look for capability that is your own or greater 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:42.760 than something else is a very different context than i want to use the latest 00:27:42.760 --> 00:27:47.600 and greatest tools much like you were just saying linux works for the most part 00:27:47.600 --> 00:27:50.740 uh the last time that i've had a wi-fi card not work, 00:27:51.580 --> 00:27:53.840 has been a very long time ago. 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:58.480 And this is coming from Zorn OS on a 2011 MacBook kind of thing. 00:27:59.560 --> 00:28:03.520 So we don't have to Ethernet in to get our Wi-Fi drivers anymore. 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:05.760 Things work, which means that 00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:10.200 we're functional. We've met largely the goal of the context of the 90s. 00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:15.040 Now we have this technology. And if we don't bring in the technology, 00:28:15.040 --> 00:28:19.080 if we don't support it, then the people now, the people who are coming in with 00:28:19.080 --> 00:28:20.440 a different context won't come. 00:28:21.220 --> 00:28:22.160 Yeah, I agree with that. 00:28:24.070 --> 00:28:27.110 Is this the time that we start using ai i'm not sure 00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:30.030 is it the time that we should to keep 00:28:30.030 --> 00:28:33.150 the community alive and avoid a complete separation of 00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:36.230 brain drain between the context of people coming in now right 00:28:36.230 --> 00:28:39.210 versus the context of the the 00:28:39.210 --> 00:28:42.050 old guard so to speak i i think it needs to be 00:28:42.050 --> 00:28:48.270 from that perspective where the use of ai on the linux desktop is necessary 00:28:48.270 --> 00:28:53.110 and the the question i believe it was listener sam who brought up the the question 00:28:53.110 --> 00:28:56.770 isn't uh how do we stop or enable people to use it but how do we teach people 00:28:56.770 --> 00:29:00.670 to use it responsibly yeah yeah absolutely i'm curious about perspectives on this. 00:29:00.670 --> 00:29:03.690 Well i think it reminds me a lot of what happened just in the first wave right 00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:06.490 where uh computing first was defined by like 00:29:06.490 --> 00:29:09.550 mainframes and big things you couldn't really access unless you're sliced up 00:29:09.550 --> 00:29:12.330 and yeah right right and then you got sort of like micro computing and 00:29:12.330 --> 00:29:15.150 pcs and desktop but there was this whole world of 00:29:15.150 --> 00:29:18.130 proprietary operating systems and proprietary products and 00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:21.410 still interesting and new and you know the new frontier and 00:29:21.410 --> 00:29:25.770 then we sort of figured out like oh we can make this digital commons of software 00:29:25.770 --> 00:29:29.670 that like okay you can still have a proprietary photo editor but not everyone 00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:33.990 needs that right the professionals need that so i think that spirit is there 00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:38.490 and right and we do need it's just a question of bridging to today's world which 00:29:38.490 --> 00:29:40.430 has gotten more complicated but. 00:29:40.430 --> 00:29:42.730 The essence it feels like that's right yeah. 00:29:42.730 --> 00:29:50.150 I would say uh teaching people how to use the technology has been a challenge 00:29:50.150 --> 00:29:53.130 since technology has come around, right? 00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:56.050 Any kind of technology, the hammer, you got to learn how to use that thing. 00:29:56.150 --> 00:29:57.530 Otherwise, you got busted thumbs. 00:29:58.750 --> 00:30:01.270 How many users use reset password as their password? 00:30:01.570 --> 00:30:05.470 Yeah, exactly. Right. Or chip down their computers by holding the power button. 00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:09.930 Anyways, I think AI is an interesting one because a lot of us are thinking about, 00:30:10.761 --> 00:30:15.741 How do we use it in ways that match our ideals or how do we use it in ways that 00:30:15.741 --> 00:30:21.961 feel safe for our information, especially that we don't really know how it's 00:30:21.961 --> 00:30:23.841 scooping things up sometimes, right? 00:30:23.841 --> 00:30:27.581 If you have one conversation and you might have suggested, I don't know, 00:30:27.701 --> 00:30:30.461 which town you're in or it has your IP or something like that. 00:30:30.581 --> 00:30:34.261 Well, is a conversation you're having in 10 months going to be linked to something like that? 00:30:34.421 --> 00:30:38.481 Well, we have the compute to do that now, right? So you have to use your imagination 00:30:38.481 --> 00:30:43.201 sometimes to a point that's a bit depressing to realize what's possible with 00:30:43.201 --> 00:30:44.441 the information you're putting out there. 00:30:44.721 --> 00:30:48.541 So when we try to suggest how to use this technology safely, 00:30:48.541 --> 00:30:53.061 I'm not sure we even know what the bounds are for doing that safely. 00:30:53.241 --> 00:30:56.301 And of course, everyone's risk is a little bit different. And it depends, 00:30:56.321 --> 00:31:01.561 you know, who you're trusting with your conversations, your information and your coding. Yeah. 00:31:01.801 --> 00:31:03.881 But it's not a straightforward question to answer. 00:31:03.881 --> 00:31:08.861 It seems like the risk tolerance is somewhat similar or somewhat comparable 00:31:08.861 --> 00:31:11.901 to migrating from virtual machines to Docker containers. 00:31:12.321 --> 00:31:15.521 How we understand the problem is evolving. 00:31:16.041 --> 00:31:21.121 And eventually we'll get into a world where it's LLMs first the way that it's Docker first now. 00:31:21.121 --> 00:31:25.481 The thing I liked about the question and approach you had there too is not only 00:31:25.481 --> 00:31:28.681 is it a change that matches some of our older styles, 00:31:28.881 --> 00:31:34.121 but I think it's important to not let the proprietary versions of this define 00:31:34.121 --> 00:31:36.581 what the technology is or how we think about it. 00:31:36.681 --> 00:31:40.101 Like, okay, we do need to recognize that maybe the most ways people use it is 00:31:40.101 --> 00:31:44.861 a chat GPT in a browser tab right now or whatever it is, or co-pilot in their 365 account. 00:31:45.081 --> 00:31:49.301 But they don't get to set the ground rules for what's possible with the tech or the space. 00:31:49.301 --> 00:31:53.101 and I think the FOSS and open source world has historically been really great 00:31:53.101 --> 00:31:57.001 at figuring out all of the other things that aren't profitable or aren't interested 00:31:57.001 --> 00:32:01.861 to the VC class or whatever it is and so it's like we should definitely push 00:32:01.861 --> 00:32:04.721 back on the things that are wrong and that we don't like about how they're doing 00:32:04.721 --> 00:32:07.501 it but I don't think that means we need to write off the entire technology. 00:32:08.755 --> 00:32:09.455 Well said. 00:32:09.715 --> 00:32:15.535 So here's the next part of this. This week, Bitwarden, the CLI version of Bitwarden 00:32:15.535 --> 00:32:18.515 was popped, and people's vaults were exposed. 00:32:18.895 --> 00:32:23.015 And it got me thinking, as we start accelerating bug discovery, 00:32:23.275 --> 00:32:28.015 the open source software has always had this meme of more eyes, you know, on the code. 00:32:28.295 --> 00:32:30.975 Well, guess what? We're getting more eyes all of a sudden. 00:32:31.195 --> 00:32:31.935 More AI's. 00:32:32.075 --> 00:32:34.155 Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how we handle that. 00:32:34.315 --> 00:32:36.075 Anybody in here a Bitwarden user right now? 00:32:36.375 --> 00:32:37.495 Oof, that's a lot of hands. 00:32:37.495 --> 00:32:43.415 That's a lot of you. Anybody a Bitwarden CLI user? Nobody. Interesting. Are you guys? 00:32:43.635 --> 00:32:45.635 No. I mean, I have before. I just don't use it regularly. 00:32:45.795 --> 00:32:47.975 Yeah, I don't either. Interesting. Okay, well, here's the details. 00:32:48.595 --> 00:32:52.835 So it looks like the more recent version was compromised as part of the ongoing 00:32:52.835 --> 00:32:55.915 checkmarks-related supply chain campaign. Oh, yeah, that one. Yeah. 00:32:56.275 --> 00:33:00.755 I guess they got into some GitHub actions, part of the CICD pipeline. 00:33:00.955 --> 00:33:05.515 Yeah, the attacker injected a backdated commit into the checkmarks ASTVS code 00:33:05.515 --> 00:33:08.235 extension repo. So part of the start of this. 00:33:08.675 --> 00:33:11.195 But of course, right, yeah, it's all of this stuff that you've chained with 00:33:11.195 --> 00:33:14.855 between extensions and then all the stuff that you've thought that was helpful in CI. 00:33:15.055 --> 00:33:17.675 Come on, it's one more action. What's going to, what problem could it be? 00:33:17.895 --> 00:33:21.355 Okay, okay. So I'd say about 70% of you were using Bitwarden-ish. 00:33:21.795 --> 00:33:26.755 Okay, so same folks. Are any of you considering migrating away from Bitwarden? 00:33:26.995 --> 00:33:29.735 Anybody in here? All staying. Okay, ish. 00:33:30.635 --> 00:33:34.795 Okay, ish. Pretty much almost universally people are staying with Bitwarden. 00:33:34.795 --> 00:33:38.415 Does that mean that the compromising of software has just become normalized? 00:33:38.695 --> 00:33:41.475 Well, I mean, maybe they'd feel different if they used Bitward and CLI. 00:33:41.775 --> 00:33:42.815 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. 00:33:43.255 --> 00:33:45.395 I probably would have. I probably would have been a little more upset. 00:33:45.595 --> 00:33:50.055 I was like, ooh, dodge that one. That's fine. Well, next time it won't get me. 00:33:50.195 --> 00:33:50.935 No, that'll be no problem. 00:33:50.935 --> 00:33:54.275 But the emotion I have around that is like, it's just a matter of time for all software I'm using. 00:33:55.188 --> 00:33:55.788 It's sad. 00:33:56.008 --> 00:33:58.268 Well, and there are some interesting discussions now, like, you know, 00:33:58.388 --> 00:33:59.428 considering different techniques. 00:33:59.628 --> 00:34:01.928 I think I was just reading an article this weekend around, you know, 00:34:02.068 --> 00:34:05.308 like maybe we need more delays at various levels, right? 00:34:05.328 --> 00:34:09.308 Like we do tend to catch these things, but if you go install the latest thing 00:34:09.308 --> 00:34:13.068 all of the time, especially from, you know, NPM or random repository tags. 00:34:13.268 --> 00:34:16.008 Wait, is this guy saying we shouldn't roll? I'm not saying that. 00:34:16.048 --> 00:34:17.248 I'm saying some people are saying that. 00:34:17.248 --> 00:34:18.548 Are you saying we should go to RHEL? 00:34:18.728 --> 00:34:19.428 We should go to RHEL. 00:34:19.608 --> 00:34:20.508 Because jeez. 00:34:20.708 --> 00:34:22.828 No, but I think it's that thing, right? There's the version where you're like, 00:34:22.908 --> 00:34:24.748 well, you're so out-to-date. This is clearly irresponsible. 00:34:25.188 --> 00:34:28.768 But then now is there a new version of like, well, you haven't given the AIs 00:34:28.768 --> 00:34:31.808 enough time to audit that because this just came out. And who knows? 00:34:31.928 --> 00:34:32.868 Because our software still works. 00:34:33.048 --> 00:34:36.648 All right. If AI means I can't roll anymore, then I am anti-AI. 00:34:36.968 --> 00:34:42.008 That's it. That sealed it for me right there. It's over. I got to be able to roll my distro. 00:34:43.088 --> 00:34:46.748 Okay. So we've got a group. We've got some new timers here. 00:34:46.788 --> 00:34:49.848 And we have got some long timers in the Linux space. 00:34:49.868 --> 00:34:53.588 We did a little survey before we started recording. are anybody here that's 00:34:53.588 --> 00:34:57.188 been running Linux for less than a year want to raise their hands anybody less 00:34:57.188 --> 00:34:59.768 less than a year six months ish range oh. 00:34:59.768 --> 00:35:01.748 There's someone really shy over excellent. 00:35:01.748 --> 00:35:03.048 Okay all right what's. 00:35:03.048 --> 00:35:03.668 With the blushing. 00:35:04.608 --> 00:35:06.428 Can I ask you why you wanted to try Linux, 00:35:08.883 --> 00:35:11.523 So, okay. That's a very common way, actually. So that's very common. 00:35:11.563 --> 00:35:14.443 How's it going so far? The wife installed it for you. How's it going so far? 00:35:15.663 --> 00:35:16.963 Going good. Good. 00:35:16.963 --> 00:35:17.703 We'd love to hear that. 00:35:17.723 --> 00:35:21.863 All right. Good. Good. Okay. So most of you then are long-timers. 00:35:21.963 --> 00:35:24.063 That's probably why you're listening to our show. That makes sense. 00:35:24.983 --> 00:35:28.543 We're sorry. So like I was saying before we started recording, 00:35:28.683 --> 00:35:30.423 26 years of LinuxFest Northwest. 00:35:30.763 --> 00:35:31.043 Whoa. 00:35:31.863 --> 00:35:38.303 Crazy. And 26 years ago, even 20 years ago, a lot of us were coming to try to 00:35:38.303 --> 00:35:43.383 figure out, How to get XYZ to work on Linux or how to get Linux to work on XYZ. 00:35:43.543 --> 00:35:45.863 Either way, just try to get something working. 00:35:46.163 --> 00:35:49.163 How do I get this to work? Was really, you could almost have a conversation. 00:35:49.163 --> 00:35:52.843 What do I install? Where do I go? I still have Windows on my laptop. Please help me. 00:35:53.083 --> 00:35:56.423 Right. Every conversation really. How do I get this to work or how do I make Linux work? 00:35:56.903 --> 00:35:59.703 That's not really what we talk about anymore at LinuxFest. It's not really what 00:35:59.703 --> 00:36:01.703 we talk about with Linux or open source anymore. 00:36:02.183 --> 00:36:05.523 So I kind of wanted to take the temperature and see what people think it's about now. 00:36:06.063 --> 00:36:08.303 Here we are at LinuxFest Northwest. 00:36:09.343 --> 00:36:09.663 2026. 00:36:10.303 --> 00:36:14.303 2026. So would anybody like to be brave enough and break the ice and come up 00:36:14.303 --> 00:36:17.303 and tell us kind of what they think when they think what Linux is about for 00:36:17.303 --> 00:36:18.403 them? It could be a personal thing. 00:36:19.225 --> 00:36:22.645 Would you like to do it with your name? Derivation Dingus taking the first step. 00:36:22.785 --> 00:36:24.965 Good job, sir. Good job. Thank you. Come on down. 00:36:25.225 --> 00:36:25.365 Brave. 00:36:25.825 --> 00:36:27.665 So what is it about for you? What do you think? 00:36:27.865 --> 00:36:31.805 So for me, I guess it's mostly about, I run a lot of services at home, 00:36:31.985 --> 00:36:33.045 mostly for the wife and I. 00:36:33.665 --> 00:36:41.065 And it's about making it do exactly what we want in a privacy-forward way without 00:36:41.065 --> 00:36:46.025 cloud servers and without a tech corporation dictating what's allowed versus 00:36:46.025 --> 00:36:48.925 what I can make it do sort of a situation. 00:36:50.405 --> 00:36:55.085 and then there's also the maintainability of it now you have all this infrastructure 00:36:55.085 --> 00:37:01.065 and so you have to maintain that over time and solve those problems and for 00:37:01.065 --> 00:37:03.345 me that means NixOS but there are other options, 00:37:05.025 --> 00:37:09.605 and even the wife's PCs run a NixOS now which turned out to be a really great 00:37:09.605 --> 00:37:16.285 choice I didn't even believe that was going to be the case but it is actually What. 00:37:16.285 --> 00:37:19.125 Are you struggling with? Are there things that are sort of persistent or you're 00:37:19.125 --> 00:37:20.445 unsure about or, you know. 00:37:20.465 --> 00:37:26.045 I guess lately the biggest struggle is just getting completely off the cloud. 00:37:26.345 --> 00:37:27.025 Oh, sure. 00:37:27.025 --> 00:37:29.665 And things like that. That's been my... 00:37:30.036 --> 00:37:30.796 journey lately. 00:37:31.476 --> 00:37:33.736 Can you describe why that's important for your household? 00:37:35.156 --> 00:37:40.516 It's really important for me the most. I don't think the wife would mind too much either way. 00:37:41.096 --> 00:37:45.436 She just wants it to just work. But as you said, we're in a place now where 00:37:45.436 --> 00:37:47.516 it does mostly just work. 00:37:47.656 --> 00:37:51.076 You know where I slowly think the significant other buy-off comes if they're 00:37:51.076 --> 00:37:55.036 not totally on the same page there is just, it is the incentivization over time. 00:37:55.336 --> 00:37:58.896 As you start to upgrade the stuff and it gets frustrating and it sort of opens 00:37:58.896 --> 00:38:01.476 up a window of opportunity to be like hey you know if we hosted this ourself 00:38:01.476 --> 00:38:07.316 it only changes when we say it changes and that is that can be a window of opportunity right there and. 00:38:07.316 --> 00:38:08.556 No one can hike the bill on you. 00:38:08.556 --> 00:38:12.316 Well maybe your utility right there's that the power bill i. 00:38:12.316 --> 00:38:17.656 Will say i did actually get off i was running unstable or rolling uh on even 00:38:17.656 --> 00:38:20.416 the servers and stuff like that and uh i. 00:38:20.416 --> 00:38:23.416 Didn't work so well i had to roll it back I. 00:38:23.416 --> 00:38:26.656 Wrote so much stuff now that something breaks on every. 00:38:26.656 --> 00:38:27.756 Update. Yes, yes, yes. 00:38:28.056 --> 00:38:34.056 Yeah, so I waited for this last upgrade to basically to roll it back. 00:38:34.576 --> 00:38:35.816 At that point, that was it, huh? 00:38:35.916 --> 00:38:40.296 Yeah, so now everything is unstable except for my workstations, basically. 00:38:40.496 --> 00:38:45.336 Derivation, would you like some hot dogs? Because Emma is here with a surplus hot dog. 00:38:45.376 --> 00:38:46.996 Official System 76 hot dogs. 00:38:46.996 --> 00:38:49.456 Anybody who comes up to the microphone gets free hot dogs. 00:38:49.896 --> 00:38:51.116 I would have a hot dog. 00:38:51.116 --> 00:38:54.616 Yeah, I mean, I'm talking a whole Costco thing of hot dogs. You're going to 00:38:54.616 --> 00:38:57.316 be eating for a week, sir. Eating for a week. 00:38:57.616 --> 00:38:59.336 That way you have more time to work on your servers. 00:38:59.736 --> 00:39:02.816 Thank you, Emma. She's supplying the hot dogs. 00:39:03.016 --> 00:39:04.516 Wait, Emma, come on over here. 00:39:05.036 --> 00:39:07.696 I think she's getting more hot dogs. Do you have to go? 00:39:09.047 --> 00:39:09.787 Okay, come say hi. 00:39:09.787 --> 00:39:12.127 We have a microphone with your name on it. 00:39:12.527 --> 00:39:16.187 Yeah, I got something I want to ask you real quick. Also, I like your jacket. 00:39:16.947 --> 00:39:20.747 It's pink. I would have never expected you to. 00:39:21.047 --> 00:39:21.527 Hi, Emma. 00:39:21.727 --> 00:39:22.047 Oh, hi. 00:39:22.227 --> 00:39:22.987 Hey, nice to see you. 00:39:23.167 --> 00:39:23.407 Thanks. 00:39:23.567 --> 00:39:26.847 So I just wanted to tell everybody what a badass you were yesterday. 00:39:27.087 --> 00:39:27.647 Oh, thanks. 00:39:28.387 --> 00:39:30.987 So it started really back before you even got on the airplane. 00:39:31.756 --> 00:39:35.616 Because you went to Costco ahead of time with a piece of paper and all that, 00:39:35.696 --> 00:39:37.416 I imagine. Went around and did full inventory. 00:39:37.716 --> 00:39:38.076 Oh, a spec run? 00:39:38.236 --> 00:39:38.656 Wow. 00:39:38.976 --> 00:39:45.436 Yes. And I even mathed it out. I said, I need 22 packs of hot dogs to make 400 hot dogs. 00:39:45.436 --> 00:39:46.396 Oh, my goodness. 00:39:46.736 --> 00:39:51.756 So we ended up cooking 300. So there's like 100 left over. 00:39:51.936 --> 00:39:52.796 That's pretty good. 00:39:52.976 --> 00:39:53.216 Yeah. 00:39:53.476 --> 00:39:56.036 So yeah. And I think everybody ate. We had leftovers. 00:39:56.396 --> 00:40:01.476 So when you land here the next day, you get there in the morning, like 7 a.m. 00:40:01.976 --> 00:40:04.636 You're up and at them. And as soon as Costco's open, you're in there. 00:40:04.736 --> 00:40:06.676 You're going right to every spot. You already know where to go. 00:40:06.756 --> 00:40:07.456 You know what you're getting. 00:40:07.596 --> 00:40:07.736 Yep. 00:40:08.196 --> 00:40:09.696 And you knew who to get the grill from. 00:40:09.896 --> 00:40:10.256 Yes. 00:40:10.456 --> 00:40:12.156 So it was a pretty smooth operation. 00:40:12.316 --> 00:40:14.716 She's more connected here, and she lives states away than we have. 00:40:14.716 --> 00:40:15.696 I know. Seriously. 00:40:16.076 --> 00:40:20.196 It's because I have boots on the ground here. I have a Hadiyah as my partner in crime. 00:40:21.396 --> 00:40:26.456 And then, yeah, it was really funny, though, because there were so many buns in the car. 00:40:27.936 --> 00:40:29.716 My car was loaded with hot dog buns. 00:40:29.716 --> 00:40:33.256 Yeah, there were so many buns in the car that when she hit the brakes, 00:40:33.316 --> 00:40:36.896 they all flew forward and we're like getting attacked by hot dog buns. 00:40:37.036 --> 00:40:39.016 So we're like dodging them in the car. 00:40:39.576 --> 00:40:42.756 I mean, well, I guess if we get in an accident, we're safe. 00:40:42.876 --> 00:40:43.056 Yeah. 00:40:43.236 --> 00:40:44.016 Like pillows. 00:40:44.296 --> 00:40:44.756 Totally safe. 00:40:44.876 --> 00:40:45.016 Yeah. 00:40:45.276 --> 00:40:48.816 And then also shout out to Olympia Mike because he brought like a tent and some 00:40:48.816 --> 00:40:50.836 fire starter and some stuff we could poke at. 00:40:51.016 --> 00:40:51.136 Yeah. 00:40:51.316 --> 00:40:52.356 Mike was essential. 00:40:52.976 --> 00:40:57.496 Yeah. And his Chromebooks used to hold down the tent. The tent was blown away. 00:40:57.636 --> 00:41:00.016 So we deployed a bunch of Chromebooks. surprisingly heavy that's what all they're 00:41:00.016 --> 00:41:03.436 good for now yeah when you put like a dozen of those things in a crate it's 00:41:03.436 --> 00:41:04.976 like 60 pounds it's ridiculous it. 00:41:04.976 --> 00:41:07.216 Was the only way to keep the canopy on the ground. 00:41:07.216 --> 00:41:09.956 So once again you fed hundreds of people yes well done and. 00:41:09.956 --> 00:41:11.316 I thought it was pretty quick. 00:41:11.316 --> 00:41:11.616 Yeah, 00:41:12.215 --> 00:41:15.075 Not two hours-ish, but yeah, that's pretty quick, yeah. So, round of applause. 00:41:15.215 --> 00:41:17.655 Did a fantastic job. Thank you, Emma. 00:41:17.855 --> 00:41:19.635 Stop by our booth. 00:41:19.875 --> 00:41:20.595 Yeah, go check out. 00:41:20.615 --> 00:41:21.115 System 76. 00:41:21.395 --> 00:41:22.575 They got that shiny new Thalia. 00:41:22.875 --> 00:41:25.375 Do you want to ask her the Linux question? I mean, she's been in the- Okay. 00:41:25.515 --> 00:41:27.795 All right. All right, Emma. You ready for this? This is what we were just asking folks. 00:41:27.795 --> 00:41:27.995 Okay. 00:41:28.495 --> 00:41:32.375 So, like 26 years ago, when LinuxFest Northwest started, everybody was always 00:41:32.375 --> 00:41:36.095 talking, how do I make XYZ work on Linux, or how do I make Linux work on this? 00:41:36.375 --> 00:41:37.535 It's like what everybody talked about. 00:41:38.115 --> 00:41:41.015 Now, it pretty much always works, for the most part. Things just work. 00:41:41.015 --> 00:41:43.735 So what do you think people really talk about now at these events? What's the thing? 00:41:44.415 --> 00:41:47.855 How do I make it work isn't really a topic anymore because it works. 00:41:49.975 --> 00:41:51.595 How do I make it work? 00:41:52.315 --> 00:41:52.995 What do you think? 00:41:53.655 --> 00:41:56.455 Because, like, you know, you've heard all the support calls over the years, 00:41:56.535 --> 00:42:00.535 etc. Like, it used to be in an era where Wi-Fi or just what laptop do I buy? 00:42:00.775 --> 00:42:03.175 Or how do I even make a USB to get this installing? 00:42:04.175 --> 00:42:09.275 Yeah. I don't know. We don't. It isn't, like, it's all custom, 00:42:09.295 --> 00:42:11.775 I guess. Everyone wants to make something different. 00:42:11.995 --> 00:42:12.375 Yeah, their own thing. 00:42:12.515 --> 00:42:16.755 It's how can I make it more different than everybody else is what it feels like. 00:42:16.895 --> 00:42:20.275 I guess. Yeah, that sounds about right. How do I do my own specific thing that 00:42:20.275 --> 00:42:22.175 I'm trying to do and make it look like my own thing? 00:42:22.435 --> 00:42:28.435 Emma was telling me at the after party last night that System76 had zero tickets 00:42:28.435 --> 00:42:31.215 for support recently because everything just works. 00:42:31.415 --> 00:42:34.495 It was very weird. I was like, something is broken. 00:42:34.615 --> 00:42:35.475 Yeah, it's our support system. 00:42:35.655 --> 00:42:37.455 I tested it out. I opened a ticket. 00:42:37.455 --> 00:42:38.295 It went through. 00:42:38.295 --> 00:42:38.955 That's true. 00:42:39.055 --> 00:42:39.955 And I was like, oh, weird. 00:42:40.115 --> 00:42:44.035 But that's a sign of the adoption of Linux and how it works on the hardware. 00:42:44.335 --> 00:42:47.355 Because years ago, System76, one of your challenges was like, 00:42:47.435 --> 00:42:49.695 how do we make the hardware as smooth as possible? But these days, 00:42:49.795 --> 00:42:51.255 that's as easy as it's ever been. 00:42:51.355 --> 00:42:55.995 Yeah, and we have a stellar QA and engineering team. So I trust their work, 00:42:56.015 --> 00:42:57.395 because it's showing that. 00:42:59.303 --> 00:42:59.843 Yay, Linux. 00:43:00.123 --> 00:43:01.123 Yay. Thank you, Emma. 00:43:01.123 --> 00:43:01.663 Thank you, Emma. 00:43:01.843 --> 00:43:06.883 Thank you for everything. All right. So before we wrap up, I want to just take 00:43:06.883 --> 00:43:09.323 a moment and talk about somebody who's not here this year. 00:43:10.343 --> 00:43:16.023 Oh, this is going to be tough. A big part of LinuxFest for a long time has been 00:43:16.023 --> 00:43:19.503 James Mason, 4 or 5-4 in our community. 00:43:20.943 --> 00:43:24.763 And James is a really nice guy, really genuine guy, very hard worker, 00:43:24.823 --> 00:43:28.863 and really carried the torch for LinuxFest for many years, especially you know 00:43:28.863 --> 00:43:31.703 after COVID and we weren't sure if it was coming back I mean I think James was 00:43:31.703 --> 00:43:34.923 quintessential in making that happen you might recall Bear also, 00:43:36.003 --> 00:43:40.403 he helped us get a dot matrix printer in our studio and hooked us up with the paper and all of that. 00:43:40.443 --> 00:43:43.963 Regular booster giving us thoughtful things and pushback Jupiter party member 00:43:43.963 --> 00:43:48.663 since like 2023 really really really good guy also don't tell anybody this but 00:43:48.663 --> 00:43:52.863 slip me SUSE and OpenSUSE Intel on the DL from time to time so I kind of had 00:43:52.863 --> 00:43:55.263 an inside line on what was going on. That was great, 00:43:56.071 --> 00:44:02.311 and he had been battling cancer for years, and James did pass away recently, 00:44:03.431 --> 00:44:06.751 so he can't be here, obviously, and he leaves behind his wife and a couple of 00:44:06.751 --> 00:44:10.131 kids, and he's just such a good guy, and they're doing a fundraiser for his 00:44:10.131 --> 00:44:11.611 family. We'll put a link in the show notes. 00:44:12.871 --> 00:44:16.071 And there's a spot to donate over in the expo hall as well. 00:44:16.311 --> 00:44:19.871 Yeah, and I just want to do a round of applause for James and for all his contributions, 00:44:19.911 --> 00:44:20.291 even though it couldn't be here. 00:44:20.291 --> 00:44:20.831 Over the years. 00:44:23.971 --> 00:44:24.871 Really appreciate him. 00:44:24.871 --> 00:44:27.171 Absolutely the best spirit of Linux Fest right there. 00:44:27.211 --> 00:44:30.551 That's just it. And a great guy. Local guy, too. So it was really great. 00:44:30.751 --> 00:44:32.331 And, yeah, he'll be missed. 00:44:32.611 --> 00:44:33.931 Yeah. Already is. 00:44:34.071 --> 00:44:37.471 Yeah, he already is. He already is. But this has been a great Linux Fest for 00:44:37.471 --> 00:44:38.871 us. Yesterday was a ton of fun. 00:44:40.391 --> 00:44:42.631 And I think he would have loved to. I think he would have enjoyed it. 00:44:42.631 --> 00:44:47.231 And it was another classic one where we had the beautiful weather this year. 00:44:47.431 --> 00:44:50.171 You know, we always say it's like, yeah, it's sometimes a little crappy. 00:44:50.471 --> 00:44:53.511 Got to warn you. It could be a little crappy. We got a good one this year. 00:44:53.511 --> 00:44:57.971 There's something about a lawn full of Linux nerds having a good time. 00:44:58.291 --> 00:45:00.951 Yeah, seeing everybody out there eating, having a picnic, eating cookies and hot dogs. 00:45:00.951 --> 00:45:03.191 And getting that vitamin D we don't always get in the Pacific Northwest. 00:45:04.531 --> 00:45:07.771 Very much so. Thank you, everybody, for coming. We're going to wrap it up there 00:45:07.771 --> 00:45:10.891 so we don't make it too long on the recording. But we'll hang out for a little bit after this. 00:45:10.991 --> 00:45:14.751 But thank you very much. And we hope to see you back here next year, too. Thank you, guys. 00:45:19.171 --> 00:45:23.091 Hey, a big shout-out to the LinuxFest staff and our proctor. Making all this work. 00:45:23.091 --> 00:45:24.631 Thank you, LinuxFest staff. Thank you. 00:45:31.729 --> 00:45:34.649 While we're here back in the studio, we might sound a little different. 00:45:34.809 --> 00:45:35.909 Do you sound different? You sound clean. 00:45:36.089 --> 00:45:38.749 Yeah, it's nice. Oh, hello, boys. Back on the regular microphone. 00:45:39.009 --> 00:45:43.409 It was amazing to see everybody at LinuxFest. And, well, of course, 00:45:43.549 --> 00:45:46.269 it is always a special fest. This was no exception. 00:45:46.549 --> 00:45:51.009 So a huge thank you to everybody who flew from all over, drove from all over, 00:45:51.169 --> 00:45:56.349 swam if you swam, but the entire community for coming out and hanging out together with us. 00:45:57.329 --> 00:45:59.349 And to the bigger community for 00:45:59.349 --> 00:46:03.829 helping us get those headsets that we use reliably at every single event. 00:46:03.869 --> 00:46:06.969 Those things are amazing. So thank you for that. 00:46:07.709 --> 00:46:09.389 We are super grateful. 00:46:10.409 --> 00:46:14.189 Oh, my gosh. Has things really improved for us in terms of our mobile kit? 00:46:14.289 --> 00:46:15.229 Thank you again, everyone. 00:46:15.389 --> 00:46:15.829 It's so simple. 00:46:16.049 --> 00:46:18.569 Who contributed to that. Still paying dividends on that one. 00:46:18.989 --> 00:46:21.909 All right, Brentley, kick us off with our baller booster this week. 00:46:22.029 --> 00:46:27.089 Well, we are extra grateful this week because we have a baller booster. Spooky satcom. 00:46:31.089 --> 00:46:37.049 Spooky Satcom came in with a mega space balls boost. One, two, three, four, five, six. 00:46:41.089 --> 00:46:44.549 That's amazing. Thank you very much, Spooky. 00:46:50.532 --> 00:46:53.992 $123,456. That's great. 00:46:54.332 --> 00:46:58.972 It's insane. Ventoy has been my go-to in a pinch. 00:46:59.292 --> 00:47:03.872 With all my .files backed up to a self-hosted Forge.io instance, 00:47:04.172 --> 00:47:07.552 and my important files running on a self-hosted NextCloud instance, 00:47:08.052 --> 00:47:10.452 my worries are pretty much low these days. 00:47:10.612 --> 00:47:14.172 I like this setup. This is a solid setup. I like this a lot. 00:47:14.572 --> 00:47:20.792 Shout out to Carl from System76 for his work on the amendments to Colorado's age attestation bill. 00:47:20.952 --> 00:47:23.092 That's SB 26-051. 00:47:23.432 --> 00:47:25.412 Thank you for that dedication. 00:47:26.412 --> 00:47:30.032 Indeed. Thank you very much for that baller boost, Spooky Satcom. 00:47:30.452 --> 00:47:32.692 Nice setup you got there. Really appreciate that. 00:47:33.272 --> 00:47:38.452 Our next boost comes from Turd Ferguson with 22,222 sats. 00:47:42.352 --> 00:47:46.932 Sending some value your way for LinuxFest Northwest efforts and expenses. Grill a hot dog for me. 00:47:47.092 --> 00:47:47.652 Thank you, Turd. 00:47:47.652 --> 00:47:49.712 We did. We appreciate you very much. 00:47:49.872 --> 00:47:50.452 Where did it go? 00:47:51.952 --> 00:47:53.292 Brent, don't go there. 00:47:54.672 --> 00:47:59.252 TR Selby boosts in with 7,490 Satoshis. 00:48:01.212 --> 00:48:06.992 There and back again. I'm betting on Brent going west-southwest for the Linux Fest northwest. 00:48:08.452 --> 00:48:09.772 Well, pretty much. 00:48:10.052 --> 00:48:10.232 Yeah. 00:48:10.832 --> 00:48:14.692 Just in case you need AAA to boost your battery, you can put this boost towards 00:48:14.692 --> 00:48:16.432 it. Otherwise, enjoy a cider. 00:48:16.432 --> 00:48:22.372 Aww thank you thank you that's nice yes alright we'll find Brent a nice gluten 00:48:22.372 --> 00:48:30.112 free cider there's plenty to enjoy Gene Bean comes in with 244 nope 200 2,444 00:48:30.112 --> 00:48:31.192 sets sorry I'm stealing it Brent, 00:48:34.351 --> 00:48:38.431 I'm not defending the training methods of AI, but comparing to user grabbing 00:48:38.431 --> 00:48:40.931 stuff from Stack Exchange or GitHub isn't really fair either. 00:48:41.371 --> 00:48:44.351 Two wrongs don't make a right. A user violating the license is just as wrong 00:48:44.351 --> 00:48:47.251 as model training and not giving required attribution. 00:48:47.671 --> 00:48:51.211 Yeah, and I think really I was probably being too glib when I said, 00:48:51.271 --> 00:48:53.251 you know, somebody goes to Stack Exchange and they copy-paste. 00:48:53.931 --> 00:48:57.751 What I was really trying to say is like people just are learning iterative from 00:48:57.751 --> 00:49:00.031 each other, and that's how they naturally do it on the internet. 00:49:00.251 --> 00:49:01.511 And attribution still matters. 00:49:02.531 --> 00:49:05.351 Well and just there's like i don't know i think part of it too at least from 00:49:05.351 --> 00:49:09.751 my side was we were trying to lay out the scope of different just the the landscape 00:49:09.751 --> 00:49:12.691 of things and issues to um, 00:49:13.151 --> 00:49:17.791 to fight about which can you know can start with what do you even assign to 00:49:17.791 --> 00:49:22.331 like how should copyright work right like you what layer of the discussion you 00:49:22.331 --> 00:49:25.191 start on kind of matters for this debate so part of i was just hoping we could 00:49:25.191 --> 00:49:27.991 lay out all the different ways so that we could be clear about which things 00:49:27.991 --> 00:49:30.151 we are talking about, but yeah, totally agree. 00:49:31.891 --> 00:49:38.091 Very, very complex topic with many emotions and many should-bes. It's a difficult one. 00:49:39.231 --> 00:49:45.171 Ford Humor boosted in a row of sticks, 11,111 satoshis. 00:49:49.590 --> 00:49:54.030 I'm not sure what all podcast players support flipping between audio and video 00:49:54.030 --> 00:49:58.110 on the fly, but I'm enjoying catching portions of the stream on video in Fountain 00:49:58.110 --> 00:50:00.650 when I can tell you're doing a demo. 00:50:00.910 --> 00:50:04.450 This week, I switched to video to watch the pics, and it was super handy. 00:50:04.650 --> 00:50:08.970 Here's a big thank you to Drew for including a high-quality video cut as part 00:50:08.970 --> 00:50:11.530 of the production. Great work, guys. 00:50:11.730 --> 00:50:12.270 There you go. 00:50:12.430 --> 00:50:12.730 Aw. 00:50:12.990 --> 00:50:13.770 Thank you very much. 00:50:13.990 --> 00:50:14.170 That's true. 00:50:14.490 --> 00:50:18.130 Now, I have to say we don't have the regular video version for this episode 00:50:18.130 --> 00:50:20.410 because when we're live, it's much harder to do the video setup. 00:50:20.570 --> 00:50:23.130 Maybe one year we'll have a stretch goal. 00:50:23.230 --> 00:50:24.030 When we have a video crew. 00:50:24.230 --> 00:50:27.230 It'd be nice to actually be able to make clips of Linux Fest and these events 00:50:27.230 --> 00:50:28.710 we go to and release them individually too. 00:50:29.370 --> 00:50:32.590 But that is a stretch goal for the future. And we do love Drew. 00:50:32.850 --> 00:50:35.070 Thank you very much, Forward Humor. Appreciate you. 00:50:35.330 --> 00:50:38.950 Appreciate everybody who boosted it, including those of you who boosted below the 2,000 set cutoff. 00:50:39.290 --> 00:50:40.750 I think I want to pull one up here. 00:50:40.850 --> 00:50:41.230 Let's do it. 00:50:41.370 --> 00:50:44.590 There's a 1,000 set here from AmazingQ. 00:50:46.911 --> 00:50:51.091 Long-time listener, circa 2018 first-time booster, though. 00:50:51.371 --> 00:50:56.531 You asked about Pixie booted servers. For three years now, I'm running my NAS 00:50:56.531 --> 00:51:01.891 diskless, which sounds strange to NASers that generally need disks. 00:51:02.571 --> 00:51:06.111 This is what I mean. There is no disk or partition used for an OS. 00:51:06.531 --> 00:51:09.431 It is based on Alpine Linux via Netboot. 00:51:09.991 --> 00:51:15.171 The state is stored in a tar file, which is generated by the command LBU. 00:51:15.171 --> 00:51:17.891 This tar file is stored on a web server. 00:51:18.071 --> 00:51:21.351 During boot, it does fetching Pixie-related boot configurations, 00:51:21.591 --> 00:51:24.871 fetching kernel via TFTP, and booting that kernel. 00:51:25.071 --> 00:51:28.311 And this one's cut off, Wes. Do we have maybe extra? 00:51:28.551 --> 00:51:31.871 That's a slick setup. So he's basically the NAS OS is loading over the network. 00:51:31.931 --> 00:51:35.391 Isn't that cool? So then, like machine agnostic almost. 00:51:35.671 --> 00:51:38.171 We have talked about that for our studio machines once in a while. 00:51:38.251 --> 00:51:41.291 That's true. Don't even run with local OSes, just have them always netboot. 00:51:41.791 --> 00:51:44.471 That's an interesting idea. I'd love to know how it works and practice it if 00:51:44.471 --> 00:51:45.611 anybody else out there is doing it. 00:51:46.231 --> 00:51:49.931 Also, shout out to everybody who streams stats. 21 of you stream stats. 00:51:50.051 --> 00:51:51.811 How about that? Right there on the money. 21. 00:51:52.111 --> 00:51:52.551 That is cool. 00:51:52.771 --> 00:51:53.311 I know, right? 00:51:55.611 --> 00:51:57.451 Bunch of streaming nerds out there. 00:51:57.651 --> 00:52:01.551 And, of course, thank you to everybody. If you did not hear your boost read 00:52:01.551 --> 00:52:04.871 this episode, we cut off a little early when we were prepping for Linux Fest. 00:52:04.911 --> 00:52:08.751 So you may not have gotten in because we collected before Sunday morning. 00:52:09.031 --> 00:52:11.471 But don't worry. We'll catch it next episode. So thank you, everybody, 00:52:11.511 --> 00:52:12.791 who did boost those collectively. 00:52:13.031 --> 00:52:17.591 We stacked 196,240 Satoshis. 00:52:22.271 --> 00:52:24.791 We really do appreciate it. And if you would like to participate, 00:52:25.091 --> 00:52:28.131 you can get Fountain FM. It makes it very easy to boost. 00:52:28.251 --> 00:52:31.491 And there's also a lot of great apps you can connect to what's called AlbiHub, 00:52:31.611 --> 00:52:32.851 which is a self-hosted way to do it. 00:52:33.031 --> 00:52:35.691 All of this is based on free and open source software. 00:52:35.911 --> 00:52:39.191 Thank you, everyone, who supports us either with a membership or with a boost. 00:52:40.849 --> 00:52:44.189 Well, we do have a few picks to get to before we get out of here. 00:52:44.429 --> 00:52:48.709 And, Wes, you came across Updo. I feel like we've talked about Updo before. 00:52:48.849 --> 00:52:49.909 Is that what your hair does sometimes? 00:52:50.029 --> 00:52:52.169 It does do an Updo every now and then, especially in the mornings. 00:52:52.749 --> 00:52:56.529 But then I was looking through it, and I don't recall actually talking about this. 00:52:56.769 --> 00:53:01.349 It's an uptime monitoring CLI tool, but it's not just for your local host uptime. 00:53:01.469 --> 00:53:04.849 No, and that's maybe where it sets itself apart, is we have looked at a lot 00:53:04.849 --> 00:53:08.089 of sort of cool networking TUIs, and this one's more directed outward. 00:53:08.089 --> 00:53:12.529 So think something like Uptime Kuma, but less something you've set up as like 00:53:12.529 --> 00:53:16.829 a server daemon and more something you might run, you know, more temporary. 00:53:17.029 --> 00:53:17.669 As a TUI. 00:53:17.849 --> 00:53:22.589 Yeah. But it does have a Toml configuration format, all kinds of easy ways, 00:53:22.669 --> 00:53:25.529 Nix, NixOS, Windows, Docker, Linux, macOS. 00:53:25.869 --> 00:53:30.749 So lots of ways to run it. It's a Go app, MIT licensed, and it's a TUI. 00:53:30.869 --> 00:53:34.629 And so you can kind of do real-time monitoring, multi-target, multi-region. 00:53:34.729 --> 00:53:38.929 It's got AWS support, lambdas. It's got metric exports for Prometheus, 00:53:39.109 --> 00:53:41.729 so you can get Grafana dashboards going, alerts. 00:53:41.889 --> 00:53:46.769 It's got custom web hooks, flexible HTTP support, so custom headers, 00:53:47.269 --> 00:53:48.709 your posts, puts, deletes, etc. 00:53:49.029 --> 00:53:53.489 It can also monitor SSL expiration, verification, that kind of thing. 00:53:53.989 --> 00:53:59.709 So, yeah, if you need a quick ad hoc way to go do a little bit more with your 00:53:59.709 --> 00:54:04.689 network monitoring at the sort of application HTTP layer, check out Updo. 00:54:05.089 --> 00:54:09.829 Thank you, Wes. You know, when you put something out there, sometimes the internet provides. 00:54:09.929 --> 00:54:15.029 And this week, the internet provided me with Bake, I think is actually how you say it. 00:54:15.209 --> 00:54:19.729 You turn any web page into a desktop app with one command, P-A-K-E, 00:54:19.789 --> 00:54:20.649 but it's a Hawaiian word. 00:54:21.089 --> 00:54:24.709 It's lightweight. It is 90% rust. 00:54:25.149 --> 00:54:25.629 Wow. 00:54:26.566 --> 00:54:30.926 And they have some pre-made ones ready to go. They say it will be nearly 20 00:54:30.926 --> 00:54:35.306 times smaller than what an Electron version would produce. 20 times smaller. 00:54:35.306 --> 00:54:36.806 That's what got you right there, huh? 00:54:36.986 --> 00:54:40.566 Yeah, it's using Rustari, which is a much faster traditional JS framework with 00:54:40.566 --> 00:54:43.626 lower memory usage. You use one command to get it going. 00:54:44.186 --> 00:54:47.986 No super complex configuration required. Support shortcuts, immersive windows, 00:54:48.126 --> 00:54:52.526 drag and drop, style customizations, built-in ad removal. I don't know if I 00:54:52.526 --> 00:54:53.886 mentioned, but it's an MIT license. 00:54:53.886 --> 00:54:57.386 This is for Brent, right? Because he won't pin his tabs, but maybe he could 00:54:57.386 --> 00:54:59.646 make apps out of what we would consider pin tabs. 00:54:59.866 --> 00:55:00.626 Now you're talking. 00:55:00.626 --> 00:55:04.466 I like that. I wish he would just pin his damn tabs, but that would also work. 00:55:04.666 --> 00:55:05.246 I won't pin my tabs. 00:55:05.326 --> 00:55:09.686 You have so many windows now. Instead of tabs, he would just have so many windows. 00:55:10.466 --> 00:55:14.006 And that'll force him to get a proper window manager that can handle it. 00:55:21.736 --> 00:55:23.476 I am an entropy enthusiast. 00:55:23.616 --> 00:55:28.216 So we will have links to those in the show notes over at linuxunplugged.com 00:55:28.216 --> 00:55:32.576 slash 660fer, which is where you can get all of that. 00:55:32.776 --> 00:55:37.036 Again, thank you, everybody who came to out to LinuxFest Northwest, made it a special 2026. 00:55:37.916 --> 00:55:40.836 Shout out to the organizers and all the folks putting it on. 00:55:41.636 --> 00:55:46.136 Wes, before we get out of here, is there any extra nerdy details people should 00:55:46.136 --> 00:55:49.196 know about the show that only people that have listened this long would really 00:55:49.196 --> 00:55:50.216 actually even care about? 00:55:51.196 --> 00:55:56.276 Yeah, well, since XML is really painful to read, we sort of hide these things in our RSS feed. 00:55:56.436 --> 00:56:01.156 But there are magic text files you can get. Yeah, that's right. 00:56:01.856 --> 00:56:03.436 Chapters, JSON chapters, yeah. 00:56:03.636 --> 00:56:03.876 JSON? 00:56:04.156 --> 00:56:04.476 JSON. 00:56:04.796 --> 00:56:06.016 Oh, that's useful. 00:56:06.216 --> 00:56:06.956 Oh, super useful. 00:56:07.036 --> 00:56:09.256 What about like, I don't know, maybe transcripts? 00:56:09.336 --> 00:56:12.396 Yeah, if you want to track exactly what Brent says in every episode, 00:56:12.576 --> 00:56:14.456 check out the VTT file. It's got labels there. 00:56:14.556 --> 00:56:15.036 It says Brent. 00:56:15.236 --> 00:56:17.276 What? It's diaririrized? 00:56:17.496 --> 00:56:18.356 That's right. Diarirized, yeah. 00:56:18.456 --> 00:56:18.676 Wow. 00:56:18.676 --> 00:56:20.716 Just for you. 00:56:20.856 --> 00:56:23.556 You should probably see a doctor about that. And if you look really, 00:56:23.696 --> 00:56:26.176 really closely, you'll find an MP4 file in there, too. 00:56:26.656 --> 00:56:29.116 Although this week, it's not actually our faces. 00:56:29.316 --> 00:56:30.036 But it's still good. 00:56:30.196 --> 00:56:32.676 And every now and then, you might also see what's called a live item entry, 00:56:32.696 --> 00:56:36.896 because we are live on Sundays, which we call a Tuesday at 10 a.m. 00:56:36.976 --> 00:56:38.156 Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern. 00:56:41.856 --> 00:56:45.436 So why not make it a Linux Tuesday on a Sunday? 00:56:45.956 --> 00:56:51.276 Join us at jblive.tv or jblive.fm. And, of course, jupiterbroadcasting.com slash 00:56:51.276 --> 00:56:53.496 calendar is where you get it in your local time zone. 00:56:53.736 --> 00:56:57.476 We have bots, the early versions of bots. Before we call them bots, 00:56:57.676 --> 00:57:01.276 before we call them algorithms, we got them over there and they convert it to 00:57:01.276 --> 00:57:02.196 your local time. It's amazing. 00:57:02.496 --> 00:57:07.636 We got a lug that's on Mumble. You'll love it. It's great. Slow latency opus. 00:57:07.976 --> 00:57:10.136 Details over there at jupiterbroadcasting.com and on our website, 00:57:10.196 --> 00:57:11.896 linuxunplugged.com. We also 00:57:11.896 --> 00:57:15.016 have a matrix chat room going all week long and during our live shows. 00:57:15.436 --> 00:57:18.336 You can also join that. Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode 00:57:18.336 --> 00:57:22.476 of Your Unplugged Program. And we'll see you right back here next Tuesday, as in Sunday.
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